• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

Status
Not open for further replies.
Darat, maybe you are already aware of this case... but I thought maybe one from the UK would be of interest by way of evidence that such things can happen. This was in Birmingham during the Blair era:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...raud-would-shame-banana-republic-5350422.html
Evidence of vote-rigging on a massive scale emerged at the first court to investigate electoral fraud for a century.

Six Labour activists, including two candidates, were discovered by police at midnight in a warehouse with 275 postal votes for the city's Aston ward laid out on a table. They were confiscated by officers, who submitted them to the elections office. Against the national trend, Labour won a narrow victory in all three seats in Aston.

A handwriting expert concluded that hundreds of signatures on postal votes in Birmingham were probably forged. The court was told Labour supporters stood on main roads trying to bribe passers-by to hand over their postal ballots. Children were sent to steal papers from letter-boxes and householders were intimidated into handing over their forms.

A postman was allegedly offered £500 for a sack of ballot papers and threatened with death if he refused. A postbox containing voting slips was set alight.

Hundreds of voting forms were sent to a "safe house" to be filled in. Ballot papers were judged valid although the original votes had been changed with correcting fluid.

Many genuine voters turned up at polling stations and found they had already been allocated a postal vote which they had never seen.

On the day of the local elections, the council ran out of ballot boxes and some votes had to be taken to the count in plastic shopping bags. One carrier-bag full of votes materialised at the last moment. After frantic negotiations, it was allowed to stand for the election. The court was told the ballot papers were folded in the same way, and all marked in favour of Labour candidates.
Click to expand...

I think there is every possibility that not nearly enough of an issue will be found to change anything, but it just isn't true that mass fraud campaigns don't happen... particularly with mail in ballots with few checks.

I know one of the objections is going to be "but the question is DID IT HAPPEN". I'm posting this because a previous poster had said that it seemed implausible that organized fraud could exist to rig an election because of the number of people that would need to be involved.
 
Last edited:
shuttlt said:
Darat, maybe you are already aware of this case... but I thought maybe one from the UK would be of interest by way of evidence that such things can happen. This was in Birmingham during the Blair era:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...raud-would-shame-banana-republic-5350422.html


I think there is every possibility that not nearly enough of an issue will be found to change anything, but it just isn't true that mass fraud campaigns don't happen... particularly with mail in ballots with few checks.

I know one of the objections is going to be "but the question is DID IT HAPPEN". I'm posting this because a previous poster had said that it seemed implausible that organized fraud could exist to rig an election because of the number of people that would need to be involved.
Click to expand...

Some time ago

Different country

Different electoral rules

Several orders of magnitude smaller than is being claimed in the case of Joe Biden

Unsuccessful

But apart from that........ :rolleyes:
 
shuttlt said:
Darat, maybe you are already aware of this case... but I thought maybe one from the UK would be of interest by way of evidence that such things can happen. This was in Birmingham during the Blair era:
...snip...
Click to expand...

Yes we had problems when postal ballots were first introduced, indeed I’ve mentioned those in discussions on the forum in the past. But not getting the relevance to any case under discussion in the 2020 US GE. Which case in the GE under discussion do you think this applies to?
 
No Other said:
You highlight the major point. Benford's Law is only a tool and the tool is only as good as 1) The User and 2) If it is the right situation.

A person could swing the bat of Babe Ruth... but that does not mean he/she will hit a record number of home runs.

If you use that same bat in a round of golf... the chances of having a pretty crappy round of golf are great.
Click to expand...
What has this nonsense got to do with the (other) nonsensical claims of electoral fraud and, specifically, that Benford's Law can be used to detect such supposed fraud?
 
catsmate said:
What has this nonsense got to do with the (other) nonsensical claims of electoral fraud and, specifically, that Benford's Law can be used to detect such supposed fraud?
Click to expand...

Those that want there to have been election fraud thought it was the proof they were looking for, since it wasn’t they been looking at the ground shuffling their feet and mumbling to avoid to them the embarrassment of saying “oh I was wrong”.
 
The Don said:
Some time ago

Different country

Different electoral rules

Several orders of magnitude smaller than is being claimed in the case of Joe Biden

Unsuccessful

But apart from that........ :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Apologies for my post not hitting a mark I wasn't aiming for. Any case that one points out is going to differ in some way from the case at hand, and hence can be dismissed out of hand. I thought this case would be interesting to Darat as I believe he is from the UK and the case if from the UK. I also thought it would be interesting to the specific poster who was talking about whether organizing something like this would be possible given that lots of people would have to know about it. That poster seemed genuinely interested in dialog rather than just reflexively saying "no" to everything.

It seems to me that on the community organizing side of election fraud, in the right community, it is perfectly possible to organize a crazy blatant level of fraud. Given the security in place on the election, I'm not sure how you would catch it. Maybe an audit.
 
Darat said:
Yes we had problems when postal ballots were first introduced, indeed I’ve mentioned those in discussions on the forum in the past. But not getting the relevance to any case under discussion in the 2020 US GE. Which case in the GE under discussion do you think this applies to?
Click to expand...
As I mentioned, I posted this in a response to another poster who was sceptical that any kind of organized fraud was possible because of the number of people who would have to know about it. It's clearly one of the types of fraud that has been claimed.
 
shuttlt said:
Apologies for my post not hitting a mark I wasn't aiming for. Any case that one points out is going to differ in some way from the case at hand, and hence can be dismissed out of hand. I thought this case would be interesting to Darat as I believe he is from the UK and the case if from the UK. I also thought it would be interesting to the specific poster who was talking about whether organizing something like this would be possible given that lots of people would have to know about it. That poster seemed genuinely interested in dialog rather than just reflexively saying "no" to everything.

It seems to me that on the community organizing side of election fraud, in the right community, it is perfectly possible to organize a crazy blatant level of fraud. Given the security in place on the election, I'm not sure how you would catch it. Maybe an audit.
Click to expand...

But your example shows now only how it could be caught but how it actually was caught :confused:
 
shuttlt said:
As I mentioned, I posted this in a response to another poster who was sceptical that any kind of organized fraud was possible because of the number of people who would have to know about it. It's clearly one of the types of fraud that has been claimed.
Click to expand...

But as I posted above your example is actually an example of what they said, i.e. organised large scale (and the example wasn’t exactly large) will be caught out because of the nature of such attempts. So you are posting support for their claim.
 
Darat said:
Those that want there to have been election fraud thought it was the proof they were looking for, since it wasn’t they been looking at the ground shuffling their feet and mumbling to avoid to them the embarrassment of saying “oh I was wrong”.
Click to expand...
Exactly, very reminiscent of truthers, birthers and similar idiots./
 
Meadmaker said:
I mentioned that you would have to be literally insane to expect to get the results that one of the Michigan lawsuits is asking for, so I wondered what they were really trying to accomplish.

One set of answers revolved around the "they don't care as long as the money flows" theory, which makes sense.

Another element of the answer is that their ultimate client, Donald J. Trump, is literally insane. I think he is.
Click to expand...
I will offer some alternative explanations.

At the moment he is running on fumes. He has to keep momentum going in the hope that something comes up. It also does have a whack-a-mole effect where it is much harder to narratively close him out because there are so many overlapping stories going on. If he just sat quietly by and waited for his strongest one or two lawsuits the media would be able to say it was debunked and the news cycle and peoples interest would move on. As things stand, he is at least able to exert some pressure for audits and so forth regardless of the outcomes of the lawsuits.

It could also be that he has minimal expectation of winning and the goal is to craft some kind of going down in battle charging at the thickest part of the enemy line ending rather than surrendering (I don't mean in a white house siege). It seems like the Trumpest ending to me.
 
Darat said:
But as I posted above your example is actually an example of what they said, i.e. organised large scale (and the example wasn’t exactly large) will be caught out because of the nature of such attempts. So you are posting support for their claim.
Click to expand...

It's another round of the Conspiracy Theorist's Backstep dance. There's no evidence of fraud, so try to shift the burden of proof to a demand for evidence that there wasn't a fraud; if anybody makes the mistake of claiming that such a large fraud would be detected, give an example of a fraud on a similar scale that was detected; then, when it's pointed out that it was detected, claim that this means there could have been plenty of other similar frauds that weren't detected and you can't prove that there weren't. The burden of proof has now been shifted from a requirement for evidence that the 2020 US Presidential elections were rigged, to a requirement for evidence that no election has ever been rigged, any time or place, without the fraud being detected.

The simple answer just has to be, therefore:

There is no credible evidence of electoral malpractice in the 2020 US Presidential Election on a sufficient scale to influence the result, and unless and until any such evidence is produced, Joe Biden is the President-Elect.

Dave
 
Darat said:
But as I posted above your example is actually an example of what they said, i.e. organised large scale (and the example wasn’t exactly large) will be caught out because of the nature of such attempts. So you are posting support for their claim.
Click to expand...
The evidence I would need to provide to convince you that large scale voter/election fraud was possible would be a large scale voter/election fraud operation that wasn't caught? That is a logical impossibility.
 
shuttlt said:
It could also be that he has minimal expectation of winning and the goal is to craft some kind of going down in battle charging at the thickest part of the enemy line ending rather than surrendering (I don't mean in a white house siege). It seems like the Trumpest ending to me.
Click to expand...

No, it isn't. The Trumpest ending would be for him to be bodily dragged out of the White House, struggling, kicking, crying and soiling himself as he's delivered into the hands of the Federal marshals waiting outside with a warrant for his extradition to the state of New York to face charges of tax evasion and other financial malpractices, and then subsequently to claim that he left office with more dignity than any other President before or since.

Dave
 
shuttlt said:
The evidence I would need to provide to convince you that large scale voter/election fraud was possible would be a large scale voter/election fraud operation that wasn't caught? That is a logical impossibility.
Click to expand...

There is no credible evidence of electoral malpractice in the 2020 US Presidential Election on a sufficient scale to influence the result, and unless and until any such evidence is produced, Joe Biden is the President-Elect.

Dave
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom