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Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

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JoeMorgue said:
An article (which I will try and find to link to) pointed out what is probably happening.

Tell the press or the public that you have proof of illegal ballots (or suggesting it, or *Hint, hint, wink wink* saying it) is one thing. But you do that in front of a judge and can't back it up you can lose your license.

So the lawyers who are all big talk in front of the press are going to get awfully quiet in front of judges.
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The best version of this so far has been repeatedly posted already but deserves to be posted as many times as possible:

Judge : “Are your observers in the counting room?”

Trump lawyer: "There's a non-zero number of people in the room.”

Judge : “I am asking you as a member of the bar of this court: are people representing the plaintiffs in the room?”

Trump lawyer: "Yes.”

Judge: “I’m sorry, then what’s your problem?”
 
johnny karate said:
The best version of this so far has been repeatedly posted already but deserves to be posted as many times as possible:

Judge : “Are your observers in the counting room?”

Trump lawyer: "There's a non-zero number of people in the room.”

Judge : “I am asking you as a member of the bar of this court: are people representing the plaintiffs in the room?”

Trump lawyer: "Yes.”

Judge: “I’m sorry, then what’s your problem?”
Click to expand...

Walking up to the banks of the Rubicon I see.
 
It's the one positive about the level of argumentatives we are at right now.

In organized systems with actual standards you can't just.... say stuff without ever backing it up or providing evidence.

In politics and PR you can just insinuate stuff all day, poison the well as much as possible, and just bask in the "Where there's smoke there's fire" mentality.

You can't, as of yet, do that in legality.
 
I wanted to go back to something about that contractor who said Dominion Software was doing funky stuff, and gave a whole list of bad and/or illegal actions. It started off like this:

2. I arrived at the TCF Center at approximately 6: 15 AM November 3, 2020 and worked until 4:00 AM November 4, 2020. I went home to get some sleep, then arrived back at the TCF Center at I 0:00 AM in which I stayed until 1 :45 PM. During this time I witnessed nothing but fraudulent
actions take place.
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Right away, I see that last bit. What can I infer from that? Well, what I can infer is that the complainant is obviously prone to hyperbole and exaggeration. Nothing but fraudulent actions? Really?

Despite that, the State of Michigan should do as much as is reasonable to investigate the allegations contained in his statement and the others as they can. The media should do the same. I'm sure they will.

In general, the Democrats/Biden supporters/left/whoever else wants Biden to win should not flinch from recounts, scrutiny, or Donald Trump exercising his legal rights under the law. There's nothing to fear from recounts, as long as the law is followed.
 
Here is a description of one of the Michigan lawsuits.

https://www.mlive.com/politics/2020...ut-12m-votes-flipping-michigan-for-trump.html

I have to wonder what these lawyers really think. Basically, they are saying that they have seen evidence of fraud, therefore all votes from the counties that contain Detroit, Ann Arbor, and Lansing should be discarded.

Assuming they are not literally insane, they know that is not going to happen. So, what's their real goal? What's the end game? I know that it involves sowing doubt about the election, but what are they actually attempting to do? Keep Trump in office by extra-legal means? Merely put a cloud over Trump's successor? I honestly don't get it. One thing that is absolutely certain is that there is absolutely zero chance that they will get what they are asking for, so what is it that they think they might get instead?
 
Meadmaker said:
Here is a description of one of the Michigan lawsuits.

https://www.mlive.com/politics/2020...ut-12m-votes-flipping-michigan-for-trump.html

I have to wonder what these lawyers really think. Basically, they are saying that they have seen evidence of fraud, therefore all votes from the counties that contain Detroit, Ann Arbor, and Lansing should be discarded.

Assuming they are not literally insane, they know that is not going to happen. So, what's their real goal? What's the end game? I know that it involves sowing doubt about the election, but what are they actually attempting to do? Keep Trump in office by extra-legal means? Merely put a cloud over Trump's successor? I honestly don't get it. One thing that is absolutely certain is that there is absolutely zero chance that they will get what they are asking for, so what is it that they think they might get instead?
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They're doing their duty to the client, but there's no hope of success on the legal front.

Everything was in place to squeeze a Trump win out of a narrowly decided race, but Biden's lead is simply too large in too many states that this is a moot point.

I have no doubt that if we were in a situation similar to Bush v Gore in 2000, this team would be firing on all cylinders to achieve a Trump win, but the circumstances just aren't amenable to that.
 
Meadmaker said:
Here is a description of one of the Michigan lawsuits.

https://www.mlive.com/politics/2020...ut-12m-votes-flipping-michigan-for-trump.html

I have to wonder what these lawyers really think. Basically, they are saying that they have seen evidence of fraud, therefore all votes from the counties that contain Detroit, Ann Arbor, and Lansing should be discarded.

Assuming they are not literally insane, they know that is not going to happen. So, what's their real goal? What's the end game? I know that it involves sowing doubt about the election, but what are they actually attempting to do? Keep Trump in office by extra-legal means? Merely put a cloud over Trump's successor? I honestly don't get it. One thing that is absolutely certain is that there is absolutely zero chance that they will get what they are asking for, so what is it that they think they might get instead?
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SuburbanTurkey said:
They're doing their duty to the client, but there's no hope of success on the legal front.

Everything was in place to squeeze a Trump win out of a narrowly decided race, but Biden's lead is simply too large in too many states that this is a moot point.

I have no doubt that if we were in a situation similar to Bush v Gore in 2000, this team would be firing on all cylinders to achieve a Trump win, but the circumstances just aren't amenable to that.
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Attorney's goals are seldom more than attempts to squeeze fees out of their clients. As long as they aren't sanctioned for frivolous litigation, they will press their lawsuits and issue their bill for services.
 
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acbytesla said:
Attorney's goals are seldom more than attemts to squeeze fees out of their clients. As long as they aren't sanctioned for frivolous litigation, they will press their lawsuits and issue their bill for services.
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That's a far more obvious answer than any I thought of. The attorneys want money. The clients have unrealistic expectations which the attorneys feed.
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
I don't know how your state does it but in KY, you fill out a paper ballot and insert it into a scanner/voting machine. The vote is then recorded electronically.
....
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That's not electronic voting. That's voting on paper and counting by machine. Electronic voting uses touch screens that record votes to memory cards, and often do not produce a paper trail. A "recount" just involves re-adding the machine's numbers; there's no original ballot. Theoretically, the proprietary software can be tampered with. (Problems have also been identified with electronic voter registration systems.)
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2004/11/the_problem_wit.html
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/22/us-voting-machines-paper-ballots-2020-hacking
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-machine-private-companies-voter-registration
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/31/election-security-hole-406471

The problems are recognized and understood, and many newer systems include a paper ballot. But "no-paper" systems are still widely used. That's a completely different set of problems from the frauds the Trumpers are alleging without evidence.
 
Live tweeting of the AZ Trump legal team getting absolutely bodied by the court.

https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1326932166262087681

Judge Kiley presses the Trump campaign:

Their solicitation of witnesses produced sworn affidavits that his own investigation determined were "clearly false," "spam as you put it."

The ones they could not prove were false, they submitted to the court.

Trump camp: "Correct."
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Trump team assures that sworn affidavits are legit because they used CAPTCHA to filter out bots, though they admit many are obviously fraudulent spam reports.
 
acbytesla said:
Attorney's goals are seldom more than attemts to squeeze fees out of their clients. As long as they aren't sanctioned for frivolous litigation, they will press their lawsuits and issue their bill for services.
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The question is more "What do the people paying these attorneys think will happen?"

And that I'm less sure on.

Are they delusionally imagining that these legal cases will overturn state results somehow?

Are they just following Trump's commands to keep him satisfied, knowing nothing will come of it?

Are they sowing a sense of uncertainty and anger around the election to be reaped in some other action?
 
Meadmaker said:
Here is a description of one of the Michigan lawsuits.

https://www.mlive.com/politics/2020...ut-12m-votes-flipping-michigan-for-trump.html

I have to wonder what these lawyers really think. Basically, they are saying that they have seen evidence of fraud, therefore all votes from the counties that contain Detroit, Ann Arbor, and Lansing should be discarded.

Assuming they are not literally insane, they know that is not going to happen. So, what's their real goal? What's the end game? I know that it involves sowing doubt about the election, but what are they actually attempting to do? Keep Trump in office by extra-legal means? Merely put a cloud over Trump's successor? I honestly don't get it. One thing that is absolutely certain is that there is absolutely zero chance that they will get what they are asking for, so what is it that they think they might get instead?
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Is the actual filed paperwork available online?
 
Cavemonster said:
The question is more "What do the people paying these attorneys think will happen?"
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That they don't want to be on Trump's **** list yet and so they have to appease him with lawsuits one of his favorite things.

In general I think petty and short sighted are often the best way to figure out peoples motivations. There really is no elaborate plan. Of course that doesn't make it really any better.
 
Darat said:
Is the actual filed paperwork available online?
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I've seen some of it. i don't have links handy, but at least one was posted in the thread by Shutit. It's a bit hard to keep track of exactky which lawsuits are which, I think the information is there, but it's not collected into one nice easily clickable page.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Live tweeting of the AZ Trump legal team getting absolutely bodied by the court.

https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1326932166262087681



Trump team assures that sworn affidavits are legit because they used CAPTCHA to filter out bots, though they admit many are obviously fraudulent spam reports.
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Oh my goodness that reads like a thread here!

Folk think what that lawyer is saying the court should accept as trustworthy evidence, affidavits collected via an online form open to anyone.....

:jaw-dropp:

Love the judge dropping this stinger - it’s at the end of this brief excerpt from the twitter thread:

....snip....

One of the defendants moves to exclude supposed evidence that explicitly says:

"Please let me know if anything in here is false."

"There are no indicia of trustworthiness," the attorney says, referring to the exhibits.

Defendants' lawyer: "There is an inherent level of untrustworthiness of documents filed in anticipation of litigation."

"What he's asking the court to do" is to hand the court hundreds of documents from an online form, defendant's lawyer says.

"These documents are inherently untrustworthy."

Judge Kiley presses the Trump campaign:
Their solicitation of witnesses produced sworn affidavits that his own investigation determined were "clearly false," "spam as you put it."

The ones they could not prove were false, they submitted to the court.

Trump camp: "Correct."
...snip....

Judge Kiley: "This is concerning."

"How is that a reliable process of gathering evidence?"

Langhofer insists: "We've excluded everything that has the indicia of unreliability."

Judge Kiley responds: That's not an indicia of trustworthiness of the remaining affidavits. That just shows you can't disprove what's asserted.
...snip...
 
Meadmaker said:
I've seen some of it. i don't have links handy, but at least one was posted in the thread by Shutit. It's a bit hard to keep track of exactky which lawsuits are which, I think the information is there, but it's not collected into one nice easily clickable page.
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I’ve been through all the links in the thread and none seem to tie in with one? I’m not from the USA so my lack of knowledge of which city/town/county is in which state may mean I’ve mentally assigned one of the cases to the wrong state.
 
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