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Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

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A brave soul on Twitter has done a public service by picking out some of the choice nuggets from the deranged Republican challengers:

https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/1326410113402466304

Selections include:

- They were mean to Republicans
- Independent legal observers seemed a bit too liberal for liking
- more complaints of getting dunked on by pretty much everyone in the room, this is too funny.
- City workers refused to speak to CHUDs and referred them to supervisors.
- Guy got handcuffed after physically refusing to allow a cop to close the door until his demands were met.
- had to stand 6 feet back because covid, lots of these complaints
- City workers ignoring poll watcher's helpful tips on how to do their job
- Cops were "heavily armed"
- Horror of horrors, an absentee ballot came from outside the city of Detroit!
- More complaints about the presence of police.
- Getting mocked by a poll worker. Such bullies!
- Lots of complaints that Republican poll watchers are getting ejected for bad behavior when Democrats weren't. I wonder why...


Very few substantiated allegations of fraud and lots of complaints that people weren't nice to them. Cry harder.

ETA: reminder that Biden leads Trump by over a 150,000 votes in MI. Somehow I think this ticky-tack **** won't change that.
 
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Vixen said:
Election officers nationwide: 'There is no Fraud' - see NY Times front page attached.
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And it is democratic and republican election officials both, who are in agreeement.

But see, they are all part of the conspiracy.
 
shuttlt said:
Don't motte and bailey me Darat. Skeptic Ginger incorrectly stated that the claims were "piddly transgressions" that couldn't overturn thousands of votes, so I posted one of the claims that isn't a piddly transgression and is talking about thousands of votes. Now you are changing the question to whether the claims have been reviewed and found to have merit. That's a different question and something that we will have to wait for. We talk about court filings and their implications all the time on the forum,
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Edited to remove rule 12 breach
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Motte and bailey is a type of fortification so no idea what you are accusing me about. My comment was about what you posted, and I asked you about that,
Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove response to rule 12 breach
 
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shuttlt said:
I'm not sure that it speaks to the ballot counters being quite as impartial as one might like.
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Impartiality and stoicism are not the same thing. I've seen a few accounts that refer to Republican observers coming in with the starting assumption that there will be fraud, judging everything suspect that they don't understand, and demanding that everything be organised in accordance with the way they want it rather than the way that makes counting the votes go more efficiently. Getting irritated with people who behave like that speaks not to impartiality but to normal human reactions. And the election isn't invalidated by the vote counters not being saints.

Dave
 
shuttlt said:
Not that you care about claims, but here is another similar lawsuit:
https://cdn.donaldjtrump.com/public...rump-v.-benson-w.d.-mich.-complaint-final.pdf

If something substantial doesn't come out refuting the claims from the poll watchers, and nothing comes of this, then I don't see what the purpose of having poll watchers is.
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Again that a civil lawsuit is started has no bearing on whether its claims have any merit. Do you have the evidence or just the claims?
 
"If you don't put up with us with a smile on your face and a skip in your step, that just proves you are biased."

It's just the "Yeah I'm being evil, but you're being dramatic about it" excusejack yet again.

Now that they aren't holding all the cards the Republicans are going to start pearl clutching at every piece of sarcasm, snippiness, or humor thrown their way and it's sad and pathetic.

I'm sorry I spent the last four years being told "Screw your feelings snowflake" so I don't really care if the Republicans are getting some backlash that amounts to 1 in 1000 of what they've been slinging.
 
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Darat said:
Motte and bailey is a type of fortification so no idea what you are accusing me about. My comment was about what you posted, and I asked you about that, now I may have missed the context but your personal attacks are quite unwarranted.
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Darat, I replied to a post stating that the claims were piddly, I posted an example of one of the claims that isn't piddly, you then argued that all I was posting was a claim. It's like a mini-gish gallop.
 
It's great that a lawsuit has actually been filed. It's pretty funny watching lawyers, who have ethical obligations to not play games with a judge, get crucified when trying to advocate this flimsy JAQ-off of a complaint.

It might work on right wing media, but any lawyer who doesn't want to get their ass chewed out by a grumpy judge knows better than to spin this meritless trash.

One such exchange:

THE COURT: I understand. I am asking you a specific question, and I am looking for a specific answer. Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these 592 disputed ballots?

MR. GOLDSTEIN: To my knowledge at present, no.

THE COURT: Are you claiming that there is any undue or improper influence upon the elector with respect to these 592 ballots?

MR. GOLDSTEIN: To my knowledge at present, no.

THE COURT: Does it make a difference whether a claim of irregularity or technical noncompliance with the election code is made with or without an accompanying claim of fraud or improper influence?

MR. GOLDSTEIN: It does not. I mean, to claim the technical defects are immaterial, which is in some sense some of the thrust of what the DNC argued, is really to misperceive what is going on in the election code. The election code is technical.
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https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/1326347647154794496

You almost feel bad for the guy.
 
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shuttlt said:
Darat, I replied to a post stating that the claims were piddly, I posted an example of one of the claims that isn't piddly, you then argued that all I was posting was a claim. It's like a mini-gish gallop.
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Oh, you do the claim, which you posted after Skeptic Ginger observed that all you guys had supplied were piddly claims, an injustice! That filing was not a mini Gish gallop at all, it was a yuge Gish gallop!
 
Yeah that's the good thing about legality. You have to actually (at least ostensibly) prove a claim has at least some merit. You can't JAQ-off (lest not as easily) legally as you can socially or politically.
 
shuttlt said:
Would the claims here count as more than piddly transgressions?
https://greatlakesjc.org/wp-content/uploads/Complaint-Costantino-FINAL-With-Exhibits.pdf
If this is substantiated, it looks like we would be talking about more than a handful of votes.
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(For those not wanting to click, this is the Wayne County lawsuit.)

Yes, based on the complaint, this could involve an awful lot of votes. Also, if involves a very widespread pattern of corruption, involving many city workers and volunteers.

And, that's why I think it can be dismissed pretty easily. Like all conspiracy theories, there would have to be an awful lot of actors conspiring to undermine democracy right underneath the noses of a lot of observers. It's a long complaint, detailing a large number of irregularities. If all or most of those were actual instances of fraud, you would have a gigantic number of fraudsters, working in concert, to do something that most of us would find to be absolutely unacceptable, and we would refuse to participate in such acts.

Well, they'll get their day in court, so if they really have evidence worth presenting, someone will give it more attention than the cursory evaluation I have, but I don't see this lawsuit going anywhere except the trash can......

(After it's emptied. Right now the trash can has a whole bunch of Republican ballots in it. ;) )
 
bonzombiekitty said:
For the people who want a high level of the Benford's law stuff; Matt Parker, an australian mathematician and "math communicator", has a video on Benford's law and how it relates to the US election.

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Just watched that; I hadn't seen it when I constructed the hypothetical upthread, but it's nice to see he's making the exact same point and demonstrating it with reference to the actual data that's in question.

Dave
 
Meadmaker said:
(For those not wanting to click, this is the Wayne County lawsuit.)

Yes, based on the complaint, this could involve an awful lot of votes. Also, if involves a very widespread pattern of corruption, involving many city workers and volunteers.

And, that's why I think it can be dismissed pretty easily. Like all conspiracy theories, there would have to be an awful lot of actors conspiring to undermine democracy right underneath the noses of a lot of observers. It's a long complaint, detailing a large number of irregularities. If all or most of those were actual instances of fraud, you would have a gigantic number of fraudsters, working in concert, to do something that most of us would find to be absolutely unacceptable, and we would refuse to participate in such acts.

Well, they'll get their day in court, so if they really have evidence worth presenting, someone will give it more attention than the cursory evaluation I have, but I don't see this lawsuit going anywhere except the trash can......

(After it's emptied. Right now the trash can has a whole bunch of Republican ballots in it. ;) )
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George Soros paid me in cash to drive a UHaul full of ballots to Philly, so there's no paper trail. Game, set, match ;)
 
Meadmaker said:
(For those not wanting to click, this is the Wayne County lawsuit.)

Yes, based on the complaint, this could involve an awful lot of votes. Also, if involves a very widespread pattern of corruption, involving many city workers and volunteers.

And, that's why I think it can be dismissed pretty easily. Like all conspiracy theories, there would have to be an awful lot of actors conspiring to undermine democracy right underneath the noses of a lot of observers. It's a long complaint, detailing a large number of irregularities. If all or most of those were actual instances of fraud, you would have a gigantic number of fraudsters, working in concert, to do something that most of us would find to be absolutely unacceptable, and we would refuse to participate in such acts.

Well, they'll get their day in court, so if they really have evidence worth presenting, someone will give it more attention than the cursory evaluation I have, but I don't see this lawsuit going anywhere except the trash can......

(After it's emptied. Right now the trash can has a whole bunch of Republican ballots in it. ;) )
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I appreciate you taking the time to read it. We will see. I kind of feel, and hope, that the security around elections should be up to positively refuting these claims rather than it simply being a case that they fail to prove them. We will see.....
 
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