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Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

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ServiceSoon said:
What a quandary you have constructed there! You cannot investigate unless you have evidence, but you cannot get evidence unless you investigate :confused:
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Your fallacy is: equivocation. An official investigation cannot be mandated unless sufficient evidence is offered, which may have been uncovered by a private organisation investigating on its own behalf.

Dave
 
Dave Rogers said:
Your fallacy is: equivocation. An official investigation cannot be mandated unless sufficient evidence is offered, which may have been uncovered by a private organisation investigating on its own behalf.

Dave
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I do wonder what the point of election observers is if when the election observers say they have spotted problems, that doesn't lead to an investigation. Otherwise, the only function I can see would be to help create the political will to force an investigation which seems to be how they are being used in this case.
 
shuttlt said:
That's what an investigation, if it happens, would presumably find out.
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You probably need some evidence before starting an investigation. Since nobody in a position of power other than Trump believes there was fraud, Project Veritas has had to resort to offering a $25,000 reward for any evidence of fraud, and even Trump's own court cases failed to provide any evidence, I see no pressing need for one.

I'll happily change my mind when there's more than Trump & associates whinging.
 
shuttlt said:
I think given that we had a 6000 vote error in one county, it's not impossible to suppose that errors or 15,000 votes couldn't be found state wide if the election way audited.
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But, what really happened is that they scanned a bunch of ballots, saw the results, and said, "Whoa......what the heck is going on here?" They checked the machine, saw it wasn't working, and fixed it.

Saying, "We had a 6,000 vote error" is very misleading here. It was just a simple case of rerunning ballots once the software was upgraded to the new version.

And of course the election will be audited. That's part of the normal, ordinary, process. What's being called for is for outsiders to come in and take a look beyond the normal, ordinary audit.

As I said, I don't mind an investigation. Investigate all you want, if you're willing to pay for it, but let's not pretend that somehow those 6,000 votes are some major issue that needs to be addressed, or is a sign of widespread fraud.
 
shuttlt said:
I do wonder what the point of election observers is if when the election observers say they have spotted problems, that doesn't lead to an investigation.
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I would imagine Trump's lawyers will present every instance they have of an election observer spotting problems to the courts, the courts will rule on whether the allegations warrant an investigation, and if they do, an investigation will be carried out. If they don't, one won't. So far, all the suits presented have either failed on the basis that no evidence has been presented which warranted an investigation, or resulted in a court order which has been complied with, and in some cases already had been complied with at the time of the order. If Trump has credible evidence of electoral fraud, he's free to bring it before the courts. So far he has failed to do so, which seems somewhat at variance with his absolute certainty that it has occurred on a massive scale. It's almost as if he hasn't actually got any.

Dave
 
shuttlt said:
I do wonder what the point of election observers is if when the election observers say they have spotted problems, that doesn't lead to an investigation. Otherwise, the only function I can see would be to help create the political will to force an investigation which seems to be how they are being used in this case.
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So far, the only "problem" observers have reported is that they were 10 feet away from the ballot counters but wanted to be 6 feet away. Do you have any other problems?
 
Top Republicans in Washington are reluctant to call Joe Biden the president-elect publicly, fearing a rebellion by grassroots conservatives loyal to President Trump that would sink the party’s Senate majority.

Republican insiders privately concede Biden ousted Trump and dismiss suggestions voter fraud, ballot errors, or other issues would be uncovered sufficient to alter the election. But with the president claiming otherwise and two Georgia runoff elections set for January that will decide the Senate majority, plus midterm elections in 2022, most congressional Republicans are backing Trump. The move is purely transactional.
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https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/gop-fears-conceding-trump-loss-would-spark-base-revolt-and-loss-of-seats

The tail is wagging the dog. Republicans in charge know Trump lost, but they don't want to deal with blowback from the conspiratorial base so they go along with this hopeless legal challenge.

Despite the bluster, there's no reason to believe that the ordinary course of events isn't going to occur. States will soon finish their counts, baseless legal challenges in various courts will fail, and the Biden election victory will be certified.
 
Meadmaker said:
But, what really happened is that they scanned a bunch of ballots, saw the results, and said, "Whoa......what the heck is going on here?" They checked the machine, saw it wasn't working, and fixed it.

Saying, "We had a 6,000 vote error" is very misleading here. It was just a simple case of rerunning ballots once the software was upgraded to the new version.
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Right, so one "error" can throw the vote off in a county by 6000 votes and the total votes in some states are only different by 15000 votes or less.

Meadmaker said:
And of course the election will be audited. That's part of the normal, ordinary, process. What's being called for is for outsiders to come in and take a look beyond the normal, ordinary audit.
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OK, sounds good.

Meadmaker said:
As I said, I don't mind an investigation. Investigate all you want, if you're willing to pay for it, but let's not pretend that somehow those 6,000 votes are some major issue that needs to be addressed, or is a sign of widespread fraud.
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The paying for it question doesn't seem like much of an issue.
 
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wareyin said:
:( "This content is not available to you"
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My bad.

Project Veritas - who apparently have evidence of voter fraud, per one of the conspiracy theorists in this thread - are offering a $25K reward for evidence of voter fraud, which again, they supposedly already have.
 
johnny karate said:
My bad.

Project Veritas - who apparently have evidence of voter fraud, per one of the conspiracy theorists in this thread - are offering a $25K reward for evidence of voter fraud, which again, they supposedly already have.
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I'm sure they'll find someone willing to make such a claim publicly, but will be much more reticent to make such a complaint in any venue in which perjury charges could be a possibility.
 
ServiceSoon said:
What a quandary you have constructed there! You cannot investigate unless you have evidence, but you cannot get evidence unless you investigate :confused:
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As far as I know, there is no evidence that you are a pedophile.

But I guess there should be an investigation to be sure. Agreed?
 
johnny karate said:
As far as I know, there is no evidence that you are a pedophile.

But I guess there should be an investigation to be sure. Agreed?
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If half the country believed ServiceSoon was a paedophile, maybe having an investigation, if only to refute the claim to the greatest extent possible, would be a good idea?
 
Bump for shuttit.

shuttlt said:
What form do you want the evidence in? Take the widely publicised claim of poll watchers being told to leave because there was going to be no more counting only for there to be no more counting. Do you need me to personally present the poll watcher to you for inspection so you can cross examine them? This is ridiculous.
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johnny karate said:
Do you accept claims as evidence?
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"All the evidence suggests that no only are you wrong on every possible level and from every possible angle, there was never any point to even ever ask the question in the first place. You are not even wrong, you are negative right."

"Well agree to disagree. That's just like, your opinion."

- A short summary of every discussion with the Right these days.
 
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shuttlt said:
If half the country believed ServiceSoon was a paedophile, maybe having an investigation, if only to refute the claim to the greatest extent possible, would be a good idea?
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If half the country believed ServiceSoon was a paedophile and would continue to believe it whatever the result of any investigation that found to the contrary, no, it probably wouldn't.

Dave
 
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