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Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

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shuttlt said:
Well, there are the various recordings, eye witness testimony and so forth. I'm sure you know about them as well as I do. If you aren't happy with that, you are going to have to wait and see if there is an investigation. The point of an investigation is to substantiate or refute the claims. Demanding the fruits of the investigation before the investigation is ridiculous. Equally I think Nixon did kind of have to provide that by doing his own investigation before the official investigation that Kennedy was then able to have stopped.
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Sure there is. :rolleyes: You do get that people make **** up as clickbait?
 
shuttlt said:
Well, there are the various recordings, eye witness testimony and so forth. I'm sure you know about them as well as I do. If you aren't happy with that, you are going to have to wait and see if there is an investigation. The point of an investigation is to substantiate or refute the claims. Demanding the fruits of the investigation before the investigation is ridiculous. Equally I think Nixon did kind of have to provide that by doing his own investigation before the official investigation that Kennedy was then able to have stopped.
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You claimed evidence exists.

Please provide this evidence or concede that it doesn’t exist.
 
Meadmaker said:
I think that we, as citizens, can help maintain or we can hasten the destruction of American democracy. If we say, without evidence, that the wrong guy is in the White House, we are saying that America is not a democracy. I think that contributes to the destruction of American democracy.
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4 years to late to make that argument. The other side sees Democrats as having done precisely that for 4 years.

Meadmaker said:
My hostility toward Trump was enhanced greatly when he talked about rigged elections in 2016. Saying something was rigged is a good way to say that we don't really have a democracy. For a candidate to say that, without evidence, I thought was completely irresponsible. For a president to say it is unforgivable. For the people to echo and repeat those claims is predictable, but very dangerous.
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Trump says a lot of things. He was accused of rigging this election by sabotaging the postal system. Things get thrown around and each side feels convinced and justified.

Meadmaker said:
For my part, I want to see evidence, and there isn't any, and Trump should put up or shut up.
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That's going to take an investigation. At the moment the evidence is the same as there was in 1960 where there was some pretty spectacular shenanigans going on in Chicago.
 
johnny karate said:
You claimed evidence exists.

Please provide this evidence or concede that it doesn’t exist.
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What form do you want the evidence in? Take the widely publicised claim of poll watchers being told to leave because there was going to be no more counting only for there to be no more counting. Do you need me to personally present the poll watcher to you for inspection so you can cross examine them? This is ridiculous.
 
All I can say is.... HA HA!!

From: The Guardian
A “voter-fraud” hotline set up by Donald Trump’s campaign team has been on the receiving end of a slew of prank calls...the hotline, which is being run by campaign staff from the headquarters of the re-election campaign headquarters in Virginia, has turned into a “nightmare”, with staffers answering “prank calls from people laughing or mocking them..."

Some of the calls they received:
- Unknown caller: “there’s an obese turtle that has rolled onto its back and is flailing in the hot sun,” (a reference to Trump)

- Comedian Alex Hirsch: “So I saw a man, he walked into this building, And he was wearing a – he had a black hat, a black mask, striped shirt and a red tie. And I believe there were hamburgers in his bag? And he was saying, ‘Robble, robble,’ as he was exiting the building, like a burglar. You know, I think he’s probably Antifa. Can I speak to Rudy Giuliani?”

- Comedian Nick Lutsko: found an envelope marked “INSIDE: 100,000 Trump ballots Pennsylvania. Very important do NOT lose!!!”
 
acbytesla said:
Sure there is. :rolleyes: You do get that people make **** up as clickbait?
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Maybe, we will see. If we are going to take your attitude then certainly no pre-investigation evidence is going to be non-dismissible. For myself, I'll be much happier with the evidence when people are under oath.
 
shuttlt said:
What form do you want the evidence in? Take the widely publicised claim of poll watchers being told to leave because there was going to be no more counting only for there to be no more counting. Do you need me to personally present the poll watcher to you for inspection so you can cross examine them? This is ridiculous.
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What does that prove? "Hey we're shutting down for the night" We'll resume counting tomorrow at 10. Did the vote count change in the interim?

Hearing rumor on top of rumor on top of rumor is not evidence.
 
shuttlt said:
What form do you want the evidence in? Take the widely publicised claim of poll watchers being told to leave because there was going to be no more counting only for there to be no more counting. Do you need me to personally present the poll watcher to you for inspection so you can cross examine them? This is ridiculous.
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Do you accept claims as evidence?
 
TahiniBinShawarma said:
Actually the Trump campaign filings have several witness affidavits.
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Ok, but I haven't heard of any that had first hand witnesses. Every one presented so far has been a claim of what someone was told someone else saw.

Do you have any firsthand witness claims?


(Please let it be the New Jersey resident, convicted sex offender, and perennial candidate that Giuliani trotted out claiming to be a Philadelphia resident and poll watcher!)
 
TahiniBinShawarma said:
Actually the Trump campaign filings have several witness affidavits.
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Of what? Remember the scene in A Few Good Men where Caffey said he intended to call Airmen Cecil O'Malley and Anthony Rodriguez to prove his case?

Same thing could apply here.
 
If anyone had any credible evidence, they would present it to a Judge.
The fact that trumpers only present their claim's to the public is strong evidence that they've got nothing.
 
TahiniBinShawarma said:
I thought Biden won, and everything else was a conspiracy theory?
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No need to be obtuse. You know as well as I do that the voting is over. Tabulation, lawsuits, certification, etc. are not.

acbytesla said:
No, that's not what the memo said. It's about as non-committal a memo as I have ever read. I also think you're reading too much into the Esper firing.
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I hope you're right. I've probably been watching too much election coverage. If you read Esper's response though, he didn't think there wasn't much to it, and not because it was his job (which was only going to last 2 months anyways).

crescent said:
Pretty much, its good you understand that

Our current President doesn't understand that. He's an idiot who still has control of a vast security and military apparatus. That's a dangerous situation.
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Exactly.

TahiniBinShawarma said:
If it's a federal election it's a federal crime. They try to wait until after, I don't think there are set rules against investigating. They have to walk the line of not getting involved in an election while at the same time taking serious allegations seriously.
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Similar to not indicting a sitting president. Generally, you don't investigate until a crime has been committed (ETA: or reasonable evidence that one may occur or has happened). Then the FBI could investigate.

TahiniBinShawarma said:
@ktbenner


NEW: Richard Pilger, the official who oversees election crimes has stepped down over Barr's memo:
“Having familiarized myself with the new policy and its ramifications… I must regretfully resign from my role as Director of the Election Crimes Branch.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/barr-elections.html
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This leads me to continue to believe the Barr memo is more significant than some people are asserting.

This thread is moving pretty fast, sorry for late responses.
 
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TahiniBinShawarma said:
Actually the Trump campaign filings have several witness affidavits.
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shuttlt said:
But what evidence do you have? Rinse and repeat.
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Here’s how that’s going so far:
“‘I heard someone else say something,'” Michigan Judge Cynthia Stephens said on Thursday, summing up an affidavit submitted by the Trump campaign. “Tell me how that is not hearsay. Come on now!”.
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Feel free to explain why any of these other alleged affidavits should be taken any more seriously.
 
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