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Cont: 2020 Presidential Election part 3

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Craig4 said:
Each county and in some places city prints their own ballots. My ballot had the president my representative in Congress, two county judges, school board reps, and board of supervisors on it. You'd have to have a massive operation to defraud each county or city election system.
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Exactly right. Maricopa County has multiple ballots due to multiple House reps and the items you cited above. Our ballot was two sided (hence the Sharpiegate issue), larger than legal paper size.
 
Lindsay Graham is promising to investigate an affidavit from a postal worker in Pennsylvania alleging that his boss discussed backdating ineligible ballots so they could be counted.
The whole thing was started by ... wait for it ... Project Veritas.

If you can't trust them, who can you trust?
 
Meadmaker said:
CTers are never satisfied. The goal isn't to satisfy the critics. It's to satisfy the people who might believe them. It's unfortunate, but I think it has to be done to some level. It's kind of ongoing education.

The President of the United States is saying there's voter fraud. Some people are going to believe him. We need to do something to convince at least some of those people that the President is lying. You'll never convince all of them. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to convince any of them.

ETA: It's really a sort of ongoing education issue, not dissimilar to JREF's efforts to convince people that it is impossible to bend spoons using mind power. Of course it was debunked decades ago, but someone has heard something somewhere that "they" showed in "scientific studies" that ESP really exists, so you constantly have to play whack-a-mole to keep it down so that there;s some hope of maintaining the scientific world view in general.
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Sadly it's not just the President, it's the President and most of the senior people in one of the two major political parties.

I'm not sure how the US goes on from here :(

If people look hard enough, there will be a few cases of ineptitude, maladministration and even outright fraud, but likely literally an handful and several orders of magnitude fewer than would be required to actually influence the outcome.
 
Dave Rogers said:
No, he isn't. His evidence is Trump's word, and that's more than enough evidence for him. Courts of law see things very differently, of course, but to the worshipper the Word alone is sufficient.

Dave
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Amusingly, you are way off the mark.

Trump himself I pay almost no attention to. The man is a buffoon and I would place very high odds on him letting snakes like Jared and others talk him out of actually pursuing this to its conclusion even if the evidence and case is rock solid.

Giuliani has plenty of issues himself, and seems like a bit of a weirdo, but he at least exudes a focus and an intelligence and a consistency Trump does not.

If Trump had been a sharper man, he could have gotten so much done the last 4 years and could have easily secured another term either in spite of any fraud, or because he took the proper steps leading up to the election to make said fraud impossible.

He has spent his term doing little adjustments, promising things that never come, and spinning his wheels. I believe elements of the entrenched power structure and snakes like Jared / fools like Ivanka have neutralized him to a large extent. The goal was to make him have as little impact as possible during his presidency, and sadly there was a lot of success in that effort.

I don't know if Jared and Ivanka are just liberals whose personal stupidities / beliefs led them to seek to counter Trump's every good instinct, or if something more sinister and deliberate was behind it. I would be far more inclined to believe foolishness on the part of her, and maliciousness on the part of him - but it could be any combination, and those two are far from the only such figures who've been present.

Trump is too thin skinned, too reactive, too stupid and too malleable to have stood up to the intense focused efforts of an entire system to neutralize him.

I do not worship Trump, I merely approve of some of the things he stood for, or represented, or promised. I would have liked to have seen him achieve more, and hopefully he'll get another 4 years to achieve another 5% of what he should have, I guess that's better than nothing.

Now if you want to talk about a President I could truly respect and who I believe would have all the attributes Trump lacks? Tucker Carlson would be an excellent choice. The man is still nowhere near as extreme on some issues as I would want him to be, but he is intelligent, principled, focused and right on 90% of stuff.
 
So you don't hate Trump for being a racist, xenophobic, nationalist, fear-monger, you just hate that he's not effective at it.
 
Even the best Trump could come up with is

- 53 votes
- My poll observers were standing a couple of feet too far away
- The types of pen used.

I can't imagine any of his followers doing better.
 
johnny karate said:
What evidence? Please be very, very specific.
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And remember, these are things that he has "personally seen."

Not "heard about it on Fox News" or facebook

I've already relayed the story of the voter fraud that I have _personally seen_

I doubt that the poster will have anything near to that level of personal experience.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Even the best Trump could come up with is

- 53 votes
- My poll observers were standing a couple of feet too far away
- The types of pen used.

I can't imagine any of his followers doing better.
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And the "type of pen used" is already a failure.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Now if you want to talk about a President I could truly respect and who I believe would have all the attributes Trump lacks? Tucker Carlson would be an excellent choice. The man is still nowhere near as extreme on some issues as I would want him to be, but he is intelligent, principled, focused and right on 90% of stuff.
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Interesting.

Are you or are you not aware that Carlson was sued earlier this year for stating nasty and harmfully false claims about a person and that Fox's defense was, quite simply, that no rational and well informed viewer would believe the things that Carlson says - and proceeded to prove that claim so well that they won the case. In other words, Fox News is calling you an ignorant, gullible fool.
 
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The Don said:
Sadly it's not just the President, it's the President and most of the senior people in one of the two major political parties.
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Fortunately, it isn't.

Most Republicans are abandoning him. A few are echoing his claims of fraud, but most are either remaining silent or giving non-committal "We should look into this." comments. A few of them are actually speaking out and saying that the claims are hogwash, in so many words.

On TV or in media, they have to present talking heads, and they don't put up the talking heads in proportion to the actual numbers, but, really, very few people are going along with these claims.

I wish there were more that were in the "hogwash" camp, but they don't want to alienate their base. That's unfortunate. Leaders should lead, not follow, but there it is. I think a huge source of the problem is really the partisan media is doing the same thing. Shows which people accept as information outlets don't want to alienate viewers/listeners/readers, so even if they don't believe the fraud claims, they know that their listeners will desert them if they dare to question the party line.

I say "listeners" because I tuned in Rush on Friday. You could tell he didn't believe the fraud claims, but he echoed them. Because the partisan media forces know that their listeners or viewers depend on them to package the news in such a way that it reinforces the listeners' world view, instead of informing them, they provide what the market demands. Unfortunately it means a lot of people never get the truth.

ETA: On that note, I find it hilarious that pro-Trump crowds are chanting "Fox News Sucks". Fox dipped their tow into the waters of truth by actually reporting news as it really was, instead of what Trump wanted it to be, and their base was not happy with them at all.
 
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pgwenthold said:
I have been seeing stuff about comparing votes for the president vs votes for senators, as if it means something.

I mean, aside from "not everyone votes party line," this is Trump. Seriously, we have groups like "NeverTrumpers" and the Lincoln Project, who are solely opposed to Trump. As many keep pointing out, the Lincoln Project are all republicans., and there is no reason to think they didn't vote for Republicans throughout the rest of the ballot. It's just Trump they oppose.
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Minor point: I don't disagree that some republicans voted for a republican for senate while also voting for Biden.

But, the Lincoln project did more than just attack Trump.

From: Wikipedia
...the Lincoln Project has also created ads backing Democrats in other races, such as an ad in Montana promoting Governor Steve Bullock's Senate candidacy against incumbent Republican Steve Daines. Additionally, they have released videos attacking Republican Senators Cory Gardner, Martha McSally, Thom Tillis, Susan Collins, Joni Ernst and Majority Leader Mitch McConnell...
 
shemp said:
I have a better idea. Chuck him into a dungeon, and forget about him.
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"The key to your cell? Yeah, it's right . . . . Hmmm, I thought it was right here. Now, where did I put that? Is it . . . no, it's not there. Hang on a sec, I'll be right back, I'm sure it's around here somewhere!"
 
Meadmaker said:
I wish there were more that were in the "hogwash" camp, but they don't want to alienate their base. That's unfortunate. Leaders should lead, not follow, but there it is.
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They are not leaders, they are representatives.

What loser takes their cues from a politician?
 
johnny karate said:
What evidence? Please be very, very specific.
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Michigan

  • A city worker in Detroit claims he and fellow employees were told to back date ballots that came in too late. (Solomon)

  • Antrim county was initially reported as going to Biden. This was so implausible that votes were recounted, and the county went to Trump. The initial miscount was due to "human error."

  • Democrat absentee votes in Oakland county were counted twice. Once corrected, the result of the local election flipped for the Republican.

  • Over 14,000 dead people registered / voted

Pennsylvania

  • Election observers were kept 30 feet from the actual vote counting, meaning they could not see the ballots

  • Statistically impossible voter turnout, and record number of people over 90 years old registering to vote

  • Illegally backdated votes that came in too late

Wisconsin

  • Voter turnout higher than number of registered voters in some areas

  • Election officials tracked down witness addresses for absentee ballots to validate votes, a policy that may be illegal.

  • After the pause in reporting, vote shares shifted in favor of democrats within city wards, meaning this was not due to more democratic areas reporting later, and this was truer the more behind the democrats were in each ward, contrary to what an explanation based on late mail-in voters would predict.

  • Only the state legislature can change election procedures, but election officials allowed potentially over 100,000 voters to bypass ID requirements by claiming that COVID prevented them from leaving home.

Arizona

  • Based on sworn testimony, it is alleged that ballots in Maricopa county featuring "over-voting" were invalidated rather than fixed. (Singman)

Georgia

  • Illegal ballot harvesting

And then there are things like this:

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And other things I'm seeing allegations about which I haven't included here.

So when I say I've seen evidence that leads me to believe careful recounts and audits are in order, I'm not literally saying like "oh a whistleblower showed up at my house and we sat down and looked at a couple hundred thousand ballots together and they looked fishy to me" - obviously. I'm saying I am seeing allegations (and not seeing convincing refutations of most of them) that, if proven true, are quite serious and these issues to me seem to obviously necessitate an investigation. I don't think that's a huge claim to make.
 
If every state that went Red/Blue for the President also went Red/Blue for the House and Congress we would never have party conflict because one party would also be in power and let me just check history real quick... yeah that doesn't happen very often.

There's some X factor (and no I don't think mid-term elections are it or at least all of it) that keeps people from voting a single party into power across the Presidency/House/Senate.
 
‘I loved John McCain’: Inside Arizona’s GOP movement to defeat Donald Trump


PHOENIX — Two years and two months before Arizona’s rebuke of President Donald Trump, hundreds of Republican leaders of the Grand Canyon State crowded into North Phoenix Baptist Church to bid farewell to their hero and mentor, John McCain.

They were met with a tearful eulogy from a special friend of McCain’s.

“My name is Joe Biden. I’m a Democrat. And I loved John McCain,” the former vice president began, sharing anecdotes from their decades-long friendship and recounting their bipartisan victories in the Senate. He called McCain his “brother” and lauded his heroic American story, “grounded in respect and decency.”


Many in the audience had already been riled up by Trump’s famous dismissal of McCain’s years as a POW — “I like people who weren’t captured.” They’d been appalled when, just months earlier, a Trump White House aide allegedly dismissed the opinion of the cancer-stricken McCain because “he’s dying anyway.” They'd been enraged that, two days before the memorial service, Trump had again attacked McCain after reports of his refusal to lower American flags in his honor.

On Election Day, many of them — led by McCain’s widow, Cindy — took revenge: Arizona is on target to choose a Democrat — Biden — for the first time in almost 25 years. Biden's early lead was such that Fox News declared him the winner in the Grand Canyon State on Tuesday, altering the electoral math and pulling the rug out from under Trump’s plans to claim victory in the overall polling before the Biden-leaning mailed ballots were counted in the Midwestern states.
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Cheeto McFrito is incapable of understanding that actions have consequences.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
... Now if you want to talk about a President I could truly respect and who I believe would have all the attributes Trump lacks? Tucker Carlson would be an excellent choice. The man is still nowhere near as extreme on some issues as I would want him to be, but he is intelligent, principled, focused and right on 90% of stuff.
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Funny on more than one level.


 
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