Cont: 2020 Presidential Election part 3

[timhau]

Washington Examiner tweeted

@dcexaminer
Dead voters. Biden van full of ballots. Trump legal team details shock Nevada claims
NORTH LAS VEGAS, Nevada — President Trump's Nevada legal team beefed up its legal challenge to mail-in ballot signature verification in the state with startling claims of voter and ballot fraud.
washingtonexaminer.com

Since with Trump every accusation is a confession, I'd like someone to take a long hard look at North Carolina, where Trump's winning margin will be pretty thin.

 

[The Don]

Washington Examiner tweeted

@dcexaminer
Dead voters. Biden van full of ballots. Trump legal team details shock Nevada claims
NORTH LAS VEGAS, Nevada — President Trump's Nevada legal team beefed up its legal challenge to mail-in ballot signature verification in the state with startling claims of voter and ballot fraud.
washingtonexaminer.com

This should be criminal either way.

If these allegations are true, then those people responsible should end up in jail.

If these allegations are false, then the publishers of the washingtonexaminer should end up in jail.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Farage on Radio 2 saying mail in voting in the UK is completely corrupt and a scandal, he was cheated at the last election by fake postal votes and it is the same in the USA.
Postal voting has ruined elections in the UK, it was introduced by Labour so they would keep Blair in office.

Trump is right to push it in the USA because it is all completely corrupt and criminal, the Democrats learned it from the UK.

 

[varwoche]

I'm sure the consensus in this thread (haven't been keeping up with it) is that the claims of election tampering / fraud, etc. are overblown, stuff that always happens, not enough to change the outcome, outright lies, rumor, speculation, whatever.

That is what I'd expect folks here to think.

I personally have seen enough evidence going around to put us well beyond the point of justifying a careful, deliberate look and recount in specific states.

There are some serious abnormalities.

When it all gets hashed out, will it be enough to overturn the result as it stands now? Maybe, maybe not. I would say the odds are probably against Trump here.

So why did I make the renewed declaration and the avatar bet, then? Because I find doubling down / long shots / die hard mentality to be appealing and worthy of subscription.

Whereas I have personally seen the face on Mars wink.

Sometimes when I have the urge to post, I think... Will this post help a critical thinker see things factually, or arm them to help other people see things factually?

When I run your Trump-like post through that filter, it goes like this:

An anonymous character on the internet with a reputation for being disconnected from fact says that s/he has personally seen weightly evidence. But like the Rudi clown show, they failed to present said evidence.​

How very whimsical, people are saying.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The MAGA reaction to the loss seems very splintered to me, largely because of the large number of conspiracy theorist cranks among the MAGA base.

Some have accepted that Trump has lost and have reacted either with despair or calls for abandoning the electoral system altogether and seizing power. Deranged as this may be, at least it is grappling with the reality of the situation that Trump will not hold onto power unless extreme measures are taken. Calls for a violent coup or other civil unrest is at least a reaction based on a factual understanding of the electoral loss.

Undercutting this is the Q and other CT types who think that everything is still well in hand. They claim that the media either got it wrong or is lying again and that the truth will out come time for the official certification of votes or the electoral college or whatever. If you believe in a semi-divine power like Q, us mere mortals need not be concerned.

You see those calling for direct action to make the loss moot running headlong into those saying that they need faith and that nothing is wrong, Trump never lost. A wait and see approach very much undermines the very real need for direct, violent action (assuming you are a MAGA type that wants to cling to power).

I'm guessing that the truth won't be driven home until it's well too late for any concerted action. I imagine many of the Q cranks and other CT fantasists won't really come to terms with reality until inauguration day, and even then some will never confront the failure of their preferred narrative.

It doesn't help that Trump is peddling these moonshot legal theories that have no chance to actually work. If he wanted to hold onto power, he should be inflaming the sense of grievance and anger among his base, not ensuring them that a legitimate win is still within reach. He should be calling the vote irredeemably corrupt, the media and legal system untrustworthy, and declaring himself the victor now, not pending some SCOTUS challenge. His brownshirts are ready, but they are leaderless and lack direction.

 

[TofuFighter]

If any MAGA supporters read the fine print at the bottom of trump's campaign page which is now asking for more donations, it says 60% will be paid to existing debt, until it's paid, and then to recount expenses. 40% to RNC account.

It makes me at least a little suspicious that trump doesn't actually take this whole fraud fiasco seriously, he's just trying to milk the rubes so that he doesn't have to spend his own money on outstanding debts.

 

[Olmstead]

The MAGA reaction to the loss seems very splintered to me, largely because of the large number of conspiracy theorist cranks among the MAGA base.

Some have accepted that Trump has lost and have reacted either with despair or calls for abandoning the electoral system altogether and seizing power. Deranged as this may be, at least it is grappling with the reality of the situation that Trump will not hold onto power unless extreme measures are taken. Calls for a violent coup or other civil unrest is at least a reaction based on a factual understanding of the electoral loss.

Undercutting this is the Q and other CT types who think that everything is still well in hand. They claim that the media either got it wrong or is lying again and that the truth will out come time for the official certification of votes or the electoral college or whatever. If you believe in a semi-divine power like Q, us mere mortals need not be concerned.

You see those calling for direct action to make the loss moot running headlong into those saying that they need faith and that nothing is wrong, Trump never lost.

I'm guessing that the truth won't be driven home until it's well too late for any concerted action. I imagine many of the Q cranks and other CT fantasists won't really come to terms with reality until inauguration day, and even then some will never confront the failure of their preferred narrative.

It doesn't help that Trump is peddling these moonshot legal theories that have no chance to actually work. If he wanted to hold onto power, he should be inflaming the sense of grievance and anger among his base, not ensuring them that a legitimate win is still within reach. His brownshirts are ready, but they are leaderless and lack direction.

Make a show of following the rule of law. When that inevitably fails, claim that you've exhausted all legal remedies available to you without success, proving that the system is corrupt. You really didn't want to do this, but the establishment has given you no choice: a violent coup is now the only way to protect the country. Checkmate.

 

[eerok]

If any MAGA supporters read the fine print at the bottom of trump's campaign page which is now asking for more donations, it says 60% will be paid to existing debt, until it's paid, and then to recount expenses. 40% to RNC account.

It makes me at least a little suspicious that trump doesn't actually take this whole fraud fiasco seriously, he's just trying to milk the rubes so that he doesn't have to spend his own money on outstanding debts.

He'll need to raise funds for the legal actions that are due to be filed against him in the near future. That, and he loves spending other people's money in general.

Also, doesn't he have 1bn in debt coming due soon? Is that part of the "existing debt"?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Trump Retweeted

Byron York
@ByronYork
Some Democrats, media allies are angry that Trump accuses Biden of cheating. But they shouldn't be surprised. After all, they said same thing in 2016. Then they weaponized baseless cheating allegation--Collusion!--into long criminal investigation.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Trump campaign voter fraud hotline flooded with prank calls

A hotline set up by the Trump campaign to collect reports of alleged election or voter fraud has reportedly been deluged by prank calls from supporters of President-elect Joe Biden, according to ABC News.

ABC News reported that the hotline, which directs callers to a voicemail box, has been flooded by messages mocking the campaign over Biden's victory in the presidential election. The Associated Press and broadcast networks on Saturday projected Biden had won the race.

Eric Trump, one of the president's sons, addressed the calls on Twitter, blaming the Democratic National Committee (DNC) for the pranksters.

"The @DNC is spamming our voter fraud hotline to bog down the thousands of complaints we are receiving! Wonder what they have to hide," he wrote.

"The hotline is proving to be very effective as there are thousands of Americans who had very concerning experiences while voting. We are gathering information as we prepare to move forward," added a Trump campaign spokesman in an emailed statement to The Hill.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campai...fraud-hotline-flooded-with-prank-calls-report

 

[Dave Rogers]

Trump Retweeted

Byron York
@ByronYork
Some Democrats, media allies are angry that Trump accuses Biden of cheating. But they shouldn't be surprised. After all, they said same thing in 2016. Then they weaponized baseless cheating allegation--Collusion!--into long criminal investigation.

Isn't that tantamount to an admission of vexatious litigation?

Dave

 

[pgwenthold]

The MAGA reaction to the loss seems very splintered to me, largely because of the large number of conspiracy theorist cranks among the MAGA base.

Some have accepted that Trump has lost and have reacted either with despair or calls for abandoning the electoral system altogether and seizing power. Deranged as this may be, at least it is grappling with the reality of the situation that Trump will not hold onto power unless extreme measures are taken. Calls for a violent coup or other civil unrest is at least a reaction based on a factual understanding of the electoral loss.

Undercutting this is the Q and other CT types who think that everything is still well in hand. They claim that the media either got it wrong or is lying again and that the truth will out come time for the official certification of votes or the electoral college or whatever. If you believe in a semi-divine power like Q, us mere mortals need not be concerned.

You see those calling for direct action to make the loss moot running headlong into those saying that they need faith and that nothing is wrong, Trump never lost. A wait and see approach very much undermines the very real need for direct, violent action (assuming you are a MAGA type that wants to cling to power).

I'm guessing that the truth won't be driven home until it's well too late for any concerted action. I imagine many of the Q cranks and other CT fantasists won't really come to terms with reality until inauguration day, and even then some will never confront the failure of their preferred narrative.

It doesn't help that Trump is peddling these moonshot legal theories that have no chance to actually work. If he wanted to hold onto power, he should be inflaming the sense of grievance and anger among his base, not ensuring them that a legitimate win is still within reach. He should be calling the vote irredeemably corrupt, the media and legal system untrustworthy, and declaring himself the victor now, not pending some SCOTUS challenge. His brownshirts are ready, but they are leaderless and lack direction.

Are there really MAGAts calling for eliminating the EC?

That would have only killed 2 of their last 3 wins.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Thinking back on the election, I'd be curious if anyone's looking for statistical irregularities regarding mail ballots. There was a great suspicion that DeJoy was put in place for shenanigans, but aside from typically scummy Trump appointee behavior no overt accusations have surfaced. On the other hand, Biden lost Florida because a single county (Miami-Dade) turned out surprisingly biased towards Trump. There's other plausible explanations, but it would be reassuring to know there wasn't anything amiss with the votes themselves.

If any MAGA supporters read the fine print at the bottom of trump's campaign page which is now asking for more donations, it says 60% will be paid to existing debt, until it's paid, and then to recount expenses. 40% to RNC account.

It makes me at least a little suspicious that trump doesn't actually take this whole fraud fiasco seriously, he's just trying to milk the rubes so that he doesn't have to spend his own money on outstanding debts.

I believe Trump is fully able to genuinely scream about how he was cheated while stuffing cash into his pockets. The man is incapable of hypocrisy - you need at least some integrity in order to violate it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Are there really MAGAts calling for eliminating the EC?

That would have only killed 2 of their last 3 wins.

No, some are calling for Trump to just ignore the results and claim power backed by the threat of violence. There are no legitimate or reform paths forward for the MAGA movement, it's coup or bust.

I imagine this would look like Trump declaring that the election was rigged, there is no way to determine the "real" winner, and that he won't step down.

 

[pgwenthold]

"The @DNC is spamming our voter fraud hotline to bog down the thousands of complaints we are receiving! Wonder what they have to hide," he wrote.

1) I doubt it is the @DNC doing it, and
2) Yeah, what do you expect, moron? Your "voter fraud hotline" is a worthless pile of crap, regardless of whether the @DNC is spamming it or not

The MAGAts calling it are just as much spam

(I heard of one person who called who claimed that her roommate stole her absentee vote and voted for her; she then voted in person. They tracked it down and it was her signature on the mail in ballot. When they asked if she wanted to file a fraudulant ballot charge against her "roommate" she declined)

 

[Meadmaker]

I appreciate what you say, but this is creating a never-ending cycle of claim-investigation-debunking in which those people claiming voter fraud are never satisfied because even if this case is explained (and they may not be satisfied with any explanation), what about the next case ?

CTers are never satisfied. The goal isn't to satisfy the critics. It's to satisfy the people who might believe them. It's unfortunate, but I think it has to be done to some level. It's kind of ongoing education.

The President of the United States is saying there's voter fraud. Some people are going to believe him. We need to do something to convince at least some of those people that the President is lying. You'll never convince all of them. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to convince any of them.

ETA: It's really a sort of ongoing education issue, not dissimilar to JREF's efforts to convince people that it is impossible to bend spoons using mind power. Of course it was debunked decades ago, but someone has heard something somewhere that "they" showed in "scientific studies" that ESP really exists, so you constantly have to play whack-a-mole to keep it down so that there;s some hope of maintaining the scientific world view in general.

 

[MRC_Hans]

As for evidence of voter fraud: My lack of understanding of the US ballot system maybe fooling me, but ...

Isn't the Trump claim that mail-in votes were riddled with false votes, and this is the reason for the result?

So, there were some ten million mail-in votes, right?
And Biden is some 4 million votes ahead, right?

Then a random sample of just a few thousand votes would show if this is true.

Hans

 

[pgwenthold]

I have been seeing stuff about comparing votes for the president vs votes for senators, as if it means something.

I mean, aside from "not everyone votes party line," this is Trump. Seriously, we have groups like "NeverTrumpers" and the Lincoln Project, who are solely opposed to Trump. As many keep pointing out, the Lincoln Project are all republicans., and there is no reason to think they didn't vote for Republicans throughout the rest of the ballot. It's just Trump they oppose.

So what's the problem?

 

[Meadmaker]

Fox News is reporting that Trump is planning to start rallies again.

Get ready, the circus is coming to town.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tr...-pursues-legal-challenges-to-election-results

How pathetic.

This doesn't end well for him. It's one thing to get a bunch of people behind the President, or even the Next President.

He's going to find that it doesn't work as well for the Last President and new biggest loser. However, I suppose in his mind the 1,000 cheering people, many of whom can read, will be hordes of cheering crowds. He needs that adulation, and he will conjure it in his own mind from whatever pathetic and small group he can gather.

It's genuinely insane.

 

[Craig4]

As for evidence of voter fraud: My lack of understanding of the US ballot system maybe fooling me, but ...

Isn't the Trump claim that mail-in votes were riddled with false votes, and this is the reason for the result?

So, there were some ten million mail-in votes, right?
And Biden is some 4 million votes ahead, right?

Then a random sample of just a few thousand votes would show if this is true.

Hans

Each county and in some places city prints their own ballots. My ballot had the president my representative in Congress, two county judges, school board reps, and board of supervisors on it. You'd have to have a massive operation to defraud each county or city election system.