Cont: Biden for President? Pt 3

Dr. Keith said:
I know more people who voted for Biden that would never vote for Sanders than I do people who would vote for Sanders, but never Biden.

Most have student loan debt from medical school, but they are not alone.
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Yeah, I would genuinely be interested in seeing some data. I know that progressives and leftists are going to say, "See, look! Biden didn't attract Republicans which was their strategy, and he lost more ethnic minorities to Trump than before and yet he was supposed to be strong with them, so the answer must be Sanders!"

Well, nice theory, but then again, instead of being a nail-biter like this election, there is always the possibility that the Democrats get electorally wiped out.

People say they would vote for a Black candidate at 96%, a Catholic at 95%, a Hispanic at 95%, a woman at 94% and a Jewish person at 93%, Gay/Lesbian at 76%

Then atheist at 60% and a socialist at 47%.

The figures don't bode well for an ageing, atheist, socialist Jew.
 
angrysoba said:
Yeah, I would genuinely be interested in seeing some data. I know that progressives and leftists are going to say, "See, look! Biden didn't attract Republicans which was their strategy, and he lost more ethnic minorities to Trump than before and yet he was supposed to be strong with them, so the answer must be Sanders!"

Well, nice theory, but then again, instead of being a nail-biter like this election, there is always the possibility that the Democrats get electorally wiped out.
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I agree it’s a bit silly.

The pollsters massively underestimated the pro Trump turn out. They also severely underestimated the Trump campaign’s competency. They may be bad at government but they could run an election campaign like nobody else.

Biden got everyone and their mothers to come vote. Turnout was through the roof. It’s not on Biden that Trump ran an excellent, if unorthodox, campaign.
 
angrysoba said:
Nah! I don't see it. Where are these people coming from?

When the final votes are counted, how many more would there have been to bring out?
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Possibly young people. Turnout for young people was low in the primaries yeah, but also low in this general.
 
I wasn't happy to see Biden get the nomination, but it was for one, single, reason. He's too old. I think that hurt him at the polls, too.

However, as the campaign went on, I eventually decided that Joe Biden was the perfect man for the job. Mostly a conciliator, a grandfatherly figure, a basic, decent man, but with a feisty streak willing to call out Donald Trump on his lies, and even throw Trump on defense with some attacks that left Trump in a position to have to explain his out of context words.

In the end, I'm glad he got the nomination.

Unless he loses. If he loses, he's a old fogey who should have stayed on the park bench instead of running for President.
 
I remain ambivalent about a Biden presidency, but it's an unambiguous good that Trump lost.

I don't know what this means for the longer term future, but some of the worst people in this country are extremely demoralized right now, and that rocks.

The struggle against neoliberalism continues tomorrow, but today is a good day.
 
Delvo said:
...Your claim is that Biden would win the general election because being "moderate" is how to win. There are exactly zero examples of that principle ever actually working.
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Except for Kennedy, Carter, Clinton, Obama. Johnson was an incumbent. That's different, otherwise he'd qualify. Oh wait, that's everybody.

Your claim is that campaigning to the left would lose the general election because going left is how to lose. There are exactly zero examples of that principle ever actually working.
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McGovern.
 
varwoche said:
Except for Kennedy, Carter, Clinton, Obama. Johnson was an incumbent. That's different, otherwise he'd qualify. Oh wait, that's everybody.

McGovern.
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You are forgetting that vast pool of hidden left wing voters out there, pal....
 
Obama, at least in 2008, ran as a progressive. Sure, he didn't govern as one, but the campaign messaging was quite clear. He didn't run as a Clinton third-way liberal.
 
Someone just leaked a Fox News Memo....they will not refer to Biden as the President Elect.
What a bunch of A Holes.
 
varwoche said:
Except for Kennedy, Carter, Clinton, Obama...

McGovern.
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Bill "a vote for me is a vote for change" Clinton and Barrack "hope & change" Obama both campaigned to the left and are the only Democrats who've won in a couple of generations. The others might as well be Sumerians. When I've stated this case before, I've included things like "in the modern era" or "since Reagan" or "there might have been an era when it was otherwise, but not this one", but this time I figured everybody already knew the context. (In fact, I still think you did, just like you also already knew that I was referring to their campaigns, not how they governed after winning.)
 
Delvo said:
Bill "a vote for me is a vote for change" Clinton and Barrack "hope & change" Obama both campaigned to the left and are the only Democrats who've won in a couple of generations. The others might as well be Sumerians. When I've stated this case before, I've included things like "in the modern era" or "since Reagan" or "there might have been an era when it was otherwise, but not this one", but this time I figured everybody already knew the context. (In fact, I still think you did, just like you also already knew that I was referring to their campaigns, not how they governed after winning.)
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Bill didn't "campaign to the left". He was the leader of something called the "Democratic Leadership Conference", a group of mostly southern Democratic moderates, urging the Democratic party to reconnect with their working class roots and abandon unpopular extremist positions. When Clinton won the nomination, it was widely speculated that he would select a more liberal candidate for Vice President, but instead he went with fellow DLC member Al Gore.

It is widely believed that he secured victory with the famous "Sister Soulja" moment, where he condemned a rap singer for song lyrics that advocated violence. That separated him from some Democratic candidates who would instinctively defend the popular black artist, making excuses for the violent rhetoric.

I'm not sure I would say that Barack Obama campaigned to the left, either. He condemned the fiery rhetoric of the Reverend Wright. To be honest, I don't remember what separated him from other rivals for the nomination when it came to policy or attitude. I don't even remember who those rivals were, other than Hillary Clinton. I don't think he campaigned "to the left" of Clinton. I just think he was more charismatic.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
First female VP!
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And an African American at that! I haven't seen much news being made about either of those facts recently, and am kinda glad. It doesn't feel abnormal to have a black woman as Vice President, and it shouldn't. We have a decent, competent person in the role and that should be enough. I'm happy for her, and for us.
 
Meadmaker said:
Bill didn't "campaign to the left". He was the leader of something called the "Democratic Leadership Conference", a group of mostly southern Democratic moderates, urging the Democratic party to reconnect with their working class roots and abandon unpopular extremist positions. When Clinton won the nomination, it was widely speculated that he would select a more liberal candidate for Vice President, but instead he went with fellow DLC member Al Gore.

It is widely believed that he secured victory with the famous "Sister Soulja" moment, where he condemned a rap singer for song lyrics that advocated violence. That separated him from some Democratic candidates who would instinctively defend the popular black artist, making excuses for the violent rhetoric.

I'm not sure I would say that Barack Obama campaigned to the left, either. He condemned the fiery rhetoric of the Reverend Wright. To be honest, I don't remember what separated him from other rivals for the nomination when it came to policy or attitude. I don't even remember who those rivals were, other than Hillary Clinton. I don't think he campaigned "to the left" of Clinton. I just think he was more charismatic.
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I'm not entirely sure how important policies are really. Once people are in power then they may try to get their policies implemented but they're are subject to the whims of the House and Senate and in today's ultra-partisan times, I'm not sure how effective they will be unless their party has comfortable control over both.

IMO it all comes down to charisma.
 
Meadmaker said:
Bill didn't "campaign to the left". He was the leader of something called the "Democratic Leadership Conference", a group of mostly southern Democratic moderates, urging the Democratic party to reconnect with their working class roots and abandon unpopular extremist positions. When Clinton won the nomination, it was widely speculated that he would select a more liberal candidate for Vice President, but instead he went with fellow DLC member Al Gore.

It is widely believed that he secured victory with the famous "Sister Soulja" moment, where he condemned a rap singer for song lyrics that advocated violence. That separated him from some Democratic candidates who would instinctively defend the popular black artist, making excuses for the violent rhetoric.

I'm not sure I would say that Barack Obama campaigned to the left, either. He condemned the fiery rhetoric of the Reverend Wright. To be honest, I don't remember what separated him from other rivals for the nomination when it came to policy or attitude. I don't even remember who those rivals were, other than Hillary Clinton. I don't think he campaigned "to the left" of Clinton. I just think he was more charismatic.
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The serious lefty in 2008 was Dennis Kusinich - who was regarded as a joke. Edwards ran, lost, and was destroyed by an affair. Biden ran, fairly centrist, and...well, you know. I think Gravel ran - only remember his name because he's trying to spin up a progressive answer to PragerU on Youtube (a very good idea).

And then there were some other people, nobody cared about them.

I said the entire time that when you looked at actual positions, Obama and Clinton were pretty close - same basic health care system, same basic view on wars, rights, and so forth. No real distance on immigration, which wasn't a massive issue among dems in any case. It was mostly identity, and "did you vote for the Iraq war?", which Obama won by default.

Yes, Obama promised "change", and a lot of people read what they wanted into that, decided that he abandoned on withdrawing from Afghanistan (he wanted a "surge" there) and Medicare for all (which he outright rejected during the campaign, and couldn't possibly pass in the senate long-term anyway - Lieberman alone pretty much blocked Medicare expansion just to piss off the left).

ETA: the thing that struck me about Obama's condemnation of wright was how much he concentrated on Wright saying "Obama is a politician, and speaks in the way politicians do. I'm a reverend, I speak the way reverends so." Both of these are...perfectly correct, really. And I was always amused by the hysterics over Wright's "God Damn America", leaving out "For killing innocent people, that's in the bible!" from the same people who nod approvingly when some televangelist says God sent some hurricane to America to punish us for letting dudes kiss in public.
 
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Delvo said:
Bill "a vote for me is a vote for change" Clinton and Barrack "hope & change" Obama both campaigned to the left and are the only Democrats who've won in a couple of generations. The others might as well be Sumerians. When I've stated this case before, I've included things like "in the modern era" or "since Reagan" or "there might have been an era when it was otherwise, but not this one", but this time I figured everybody already knew the context. (In fact, I still think you did, just like you also already knew that I was referring to their campaigns, not how they governed after winning.)
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You're solidly in the realm of alternate universe here. Utterly divorced from fact.

For what nothing it's worth, my first ever political contribution: Jerry Brown, opposing Clinton in the primary.
 
Meadmaker said:
I wasn't happy to see Biden get the nomination, but it was for one, single, reason. He's too old. I think that hurt him at the polls, too.

However, as the campaign went on, I eventually decided that Joe Biden was the perfect man for the job. Mostly a conciliator, a grandfatherly figure, a basic, decent man, but with a feisty streak willing to call out Donald Trump on his lies, and even throw Trump on defense with some attacks that left Trump in a position to have to explain his out of context words.

In the end, I'm glad he got the nomination.

Unless he loses. If he loses, he's a old fogey who should have stayed on the park bench instead of running for President.
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I didn't vote for Biden in the primary, but was happy to vote for him in the general.

The list of candidates that could have been in the general election that are preferable to Trump is long. There's a long way to go before I'd balk. I mean, Tulsi Gabbard is getting closer...
 
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