Cont: Biden for President? Pt 2

[Delphic Oracle]

A swing and a miss. Look at the title of this thread. What election are we talking about?

The conversation of Joe Biden's candidacy can't involve reviewing what did and didn't work last election?

Don't try to belittle and shame me out of the conversation.

If you don't have a substantive rebuttal, try not hitting reply?

 

[JoeMorgue]

The question is how did it work out for the "Gary from Gary, IN" voter. Yeah, Trump squeaked by with a loss in the popular vote but an electoral win, so bully for him. But how did that bag of burning dog poop help the rural guy? Are those Iowa farmers happy with Trump?

The Rural areas DON'T THINK THINGS ARE GOING TO GET BETTER.

They aren't (that kind of) stupid. They know (usually, on at least some level) that the factory jobs and the coal mines and such aren't coming back.

No of course they bloody didn't think Trump wouldn't actually bring them back. That ship sailed. A lamb bleating "But I don't understand, Trump isn't making things better for them" is missing the point by a rather large margin.

They are happy because "the others" that didn't get left behind are being hurt, that's all. If the last 4 years have taught us anything is that's "spite" is a much bigger mover and shaker in politics than we previously wanted to admit. And it slots in nicely in a post-fact world, which is why that's been such a big push from the Right.

Again they are not waiting for a savior to make things better for them, they are waiting for someone to sink the whole boat because there's not enough room on the lifeboats for everyone and they'd rather we all gone down then just some of us. And Trump very much has at if not sunk at least put some holes in the boat that are going to require major damage control.

Again 2016 was a game of inches in very few areas so 2020 could very well swing the other way, but without addressing this issue on a base level in a way that the rural areas accept regardless of how much we like or agree with it we're going to do this dance again, maybe with someone worse than Trump.

 

[wareyin]

The conversation of Joe Biden's candidacy can't involve reviewing what did and didn't work last election?

Don't try to belittle and shame me out of the conversation.

If you don't have a substantive rebuttal, try not hitting reply?

The conversation of Joe Biden's candidacy will most definitely include reviewing what the incumbent has done for the "Gary from Gary, IN" voter. That's why I keep asking. You're stuck fighting the last election, while complaining that we're talking about this one.

 

[acbytesla]

The question is how did it work out for the "Gary from Gary, IN" voter. Yeah, Trump squeaked by with a loss in the popular vote but an electoral win, so bully for him. But how did that bag of burning dog poop help the rural guy? Are those Iowa farmers happy with Trump?

Probably. Trump started by xenophobic tariffs...which did a lot of damage to farmers but then he bribed them with lots of mailbox money.

 

[wareyin]

The Rural areas DON'T THINK THINGS ARE GOING TO GET BETTER.

They aren't (that kind of) stupid. They know (usually, on at least some level) that the factory jobs and the coal mines and such aren't coming back.

No of course they bloody didn't think Trump wouldn't actually bring them back. That ship sailed. A lamb bleating "But I don't understand, Trump isn't making things better for them" is missing the point by a rather large margin.

They are happy because "the others" that didn't get left behind are being hurt, that's all. If the last 4 years have taught us anything is that's "spite" is a much bigger mover and shaker in politics than we previously wanted to admit. And it slots in nicely in a post-fact world, which is why that's been such a big push from the Right.

Again they are not waiting for a savior to make things better for them, they are waiting for someone to sink the whole boat because there's not enough room on the lifeboats for everyone and they'd rather we all gone down then just some of us. And Trump very much has at if not sunk at least put some holes in the boat that are going to require major damage control.

Again 2016 was a game of inches in very few areas so 2020 could very well swing the other way, but without addressing this issue on a base level in a way that the rural areas accept regardless of how much we like or agree with it we're going to do this dance again, maybe with someone worse than Trump.

When one side literally wants to burn everything down including themselves and everything they own rather than improve their own lives, what's your suggestion on how to make them accept any improvement?

 

[wareyin]

Probably. Trump started by xenophobic tariffs...which did a lot of damage to farmers but then he bribed them with lots of mailbox money.

Trump bribed the megafarms. The small town family farmers didn't get jack.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

The conversation of Joe Biden's candidacy will most definitely include reviewing what the incumbent has done for the "Gary from Gary, IN" voter. That's why I keep asking. You're stuck fighting the last election, while complaining that we're talking about this one.

No, I'm not fighting the last election.

I'm discussing issues from last election which remain relevant in this one.

Do us both a favor and stop trying to read tea leaves to find my motive.

You're awful at it and my motive isn't the topic.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I'll take solace in that I'm pretty sure the concept of emotions overriding facts when political decisions are being weighed has now been aptly demonstrated...

 

[wareyin]

No, I'm not fighting the last election.

I'm discussing issues from last election which remain relevant in this one.

Do us both a favor and stop trying to read tea leaves to find my motive.

You're awful at it and my motive isn't the topic.

Ok, relevant to this election: how did Trump do for "Gary from Gary, IN." I'm not asking if Trump won in 2016, I'm asking how Trump improved Gary's life in 2020. Assuming he is still alive, hasn't had any loved ones seriously sick or dead from Covid, etc. Oh, and assuming that Gary and all his family/friends weren't affected by the recession or the currently over 8% unemployment.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This is what I call "I've logically explained to you why you are wrong, why aren't you now on my side?" thinking.

And this isn't some crazy fringe idea. "Hey how do I convince someone that I'm actually what's best for them" is what THE ENTIRE LITERAL CONCEPT OF POLITICS IS.

That's why I'm not going down the "Oh yeah smart guy, so what's your plan" branching path. I don't know, which is why I elect politicians to do it for me. If they can't do it, there's no point in them being there.

We are not going to get the rural areas on our side being being "technically correct" about everything. We have to give them a narrative they want.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Ok, relevant to this election: how did Trump do for "Gary from Gary, IN." I'm not asking if Trump won in 2016, I'm asking how Trump improved Gary's life in 2020. Assuming he is still alive, hasn't had any loved ones seriously sick or dead from Covid, etc. Oh, and assuming that Gary and all his family/friends weren't affected by the recession or the currently over 8% unemployment.

All your facts are reinforcing the point that apparently facts don't matter.

He has not done much for them and likely made life even worse. Yeah. But the message still resonates.

 

[TalosMarr]

Ok, relevant to this election: how did Trump do for "Gary from Gary, IN." I'm not asking if Trump won in 2016, I'm asking how Trump improved Gary's life in 2020. Assuming he is still alive, hasn't had any loved ones seriously sick or dead from Covid, etc. Oh, and assuming that Gary and all his family/friends weren't affected by the recession or the currently over 8% unemployment.

Delphic Oracles point is that Gary is too stupid to learn from his mistakes, but is too coy to say that.

Gary from Gary will remain forever stuck in limbo where he can evaluate his position enough to see he's in distress but is not introspective enough to realize his position has been made worse the last 4 years and will continue to vote based on his profound inability to be a real human being.

 

[wareyin]

All your facts are reinforcing the point that apparently facts don't matter.

He has not done much for them and likely made life even worse. Yeah. But the message still resonates.

Your evidence that the message still resonates is that the message resonated once, 4 years ago. If you'll forgive me, I don't find that persuasive evidence.

 

[wareyin]

This is what I call "I've logically explained to you why you are wrong, why aren't you now on my side?" thinking.

And this isn't some crazy fringe idea. "Hey how do I convince someone that I'm actually what's best for them" is what THE ENTIRE LITERAL CONCEPT OF POLITICS IS.

That's why I'm not going down the "Oh yeah smart guy, so what's your plan" branching path. I don't know, which is why I elect politicians to do it for me. If they can't do it, there's no point in them being there.

We are not going to get the rural areas on our side being being "technically correct" about everything. We have to give them a narrative they want.

And what is that narrative? Again, according to you they want to bring the entire world crashing down. Are we to give them that to appease them?

 

[wareyin]

Delphic Oracles point is that Gary is too stupid to learn from his mistakes, but is too coy to say that.

Gary from Gary will remain forever stuck in limbo where he can evaluate his position enough to see he's in distress but is not introspective enough to realize his position has been made worse the last 4 years and will continue to vote based on his profound inability to be a real human being.

I'm reminded of an explanation of being an alcoholic I once heard: An alcoholic is someone who chooses to drink to excess in spite of alcohol causing him/her serious problems. I guess in Delphic Oracle's view rural people are "Trumpoholics" but apparently there is no 12 step program for that.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And what is that narrative? Again, according to you they want to bring the entire world crashing down. Are we to give them that to appease them?

Dude I'm telling you what I think is happening. That isn't going to change based on how difficult it is to deal with.

If we both jump out of a plane and our parachutes fail, you can't just go "Oh so what's your solution to the problem then?" to get me to change my answer as to what is actually happening.

I don't have a ready, 20 page PowerPoint solution ready for you to grade. That doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Your entire argument is "This perspective is too difficult to fix and makes me sad, therefore it's wrong."

 

[wareyin]

Dude I'm telling you what I think is happening. That isn't going to change based on how difficult it is to deal with.

If we both jump out of a plane and our parachutes fail, you can't just go "Oh so what's your solution to the problem then?" to get me to change my answer as to what is actually happening.

I don't have a ready, 20 page PowerPoint solution ready for you to grade. That doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Your entire argument is "This perspective is too difficult to fix and makes me sad, therefore it's wrong."

I'm not sure how you got that from anything I've written. If your assessment of what the average rural voter thinks is as accurate as your assessment of my argument, then we should be fine, Biden will win 90% of the vote and all the electoral college, and the whole country immediately joins hands and sings Kumbaya.

If you claim that the only thing the rural voter wants is to burn it all down while also claiming that we need to give the rural voter something that he wants, forgive me if I don't expect a 20 page Powerpoint explanation. At this point I'll settle for a single damn sentence that doesn't lead to "burn it all down because that's all they want."

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Ok, relevant to this election: how did Trump do for "Gary from Gary, IN." I'm not asking if Trump won in 2016, I'm asking how Trump improved Gary's life in 2020. Assuming he is still alive, hasn't had any loved ones seriously sick or dead from Covid, etc. Oh, and assuming that Gary and all his family/friends weren't affected by the recession or the currently over 8% unemployment.

Gary has more money in his pocket as a result of Trump's tax cuts. This is true for ALL Americans across the board, not just the wealthy ones.

But perhaps Gary has been affected by the 2nd quarter Real GDP loss of 31.4% because of Covid.

Yet with a 2020 third quarter Real GDP growth of 33.1% perhaps Gary is a bit better off than he was before Covid. The recovery is indeed a tight "V" shape.

From Gallup:

"During his presidential campaign in 1980, Ronald Reagan asked Americans, "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?" Since then, this question has served as a key standard that sitting presidents running for reelection have been held to.

Gallup's most recent survey found a clear majority of registered voters (56%) saying they are better off now than they were four years ago, while 32% said they are worse off."

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Delphic Oracles point is that Gary is too stupid to learn from his mistakes, but is too coy to say that.

Gary from Gary will remain forever stuck in limbo where he can evaluate his position enough to see he's in distress but is not introspective enough to realize his position has been made worse the last 4 years and will continue to vote based on his profound inability to be a real human being.

Agreed, screw Gary. He can apply for food stamps and welfare benefits after Biden wins. I think I understand Democrat philosophy now. Anyone in Gary's frame of mind is not a "real human being".

 

[acbytesla]

Gary has more money in his pocket as a result of Trump's tax cuts. This is true for ALL Americans across the board, not just the wealthy ones.

No, it is NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT True.

What is about the Republican position that makes them think that a lie told often enough somehow becomes true?