Freedom of speech?

[smartcooky]

I'm just not seeing how punching someone in the face changes the way the wind is blowing.

It might change the wind speed, but I'm not sure in a manner that's beneficial.

You're missing the point... no, belay that.... you're missing the entire debate; the whole shebang!

...and no, I'm not going to go over the whole thing and explain it to you again, read back if you can be bothered.

 

[Thermal]

You're missing the point... no, belay that.... you're missing the entire debate; the whole shebang!

...and no, I'm not going to go over the whole thing and explain it to you again, read back if you can be bothered.

No, no, a thousand times no. This is not a meta-thread discussion about whether right wing violence exists or is a threat in the USA. This is a thread about whether or not it is ok to premtively knock the teeth out of legally speaking jerkoffs.

The right wing threat in the USA is primarily the average Trump supporter. President Trump pretty much openly endorses a neo-fascist state.

Next are the wannabe militias and Boogs who train, prepare, and carry out right wing extremism. Right behind them is that whack job Qanon guy down the street who wears tactical gear and has a firearm collection that rivals the armory of a small nation.

A group that does not make the list are the Proud Boys. They are an antifa fight club. Without antifa to street brawl with, they are just a bunch of twats talking about their dicks.

The argument of myself and others here is that well meaning people are losing sight of their moral compass in cheering for preemptive violence against the pbs. Keep the fight with the groups who are trying to acquire power, not the impotent carrot waxers.

As a side note, you guys realize you are playing right into the pbs hands, right? This is exactly what they want you to do: they want you to initiate attacks so that you are legally the criminals, and then the Proud Boys gain credibility and social stature by fighting back. The constant attention they get is increasing their prominence. Way to go kids.

I ask again: what would have happened if antifa ignored Anderson's rally? No one showed up. He would have been a lonely nitwit on the podium with a dozen other flaccid supporters. The net result is that they would have looked weak. Instead, he was made to be a peaceful speaker persecuted by violent criminals. So antifa and the left in general look like the bad guys and the intolerant threat. You couldn't have given them more ammo if you tried.

 

[Ron Obvious]

they are just a bunch of twats talking about their dicks.

Interesting mixed metaphor.

 

[Thermal]

Interesting mixed metaphor.

Fumbled a little with 'impotent jerkoffs' too.

 

[Thermal]

Americans have not had to suffer an occupying force and war crimes committed on their people since the late 1700s... Americans in general have no . ******* . idea what it means to fight a war at home.

Nor do you, I think.

The more I think about this, this kind of thinking is the root of the problem. This weird Continuity of Conciousness thing. You think a fight or hardship taken on by others in a different time and place justifies your actions against others now.

You assimilate the hardships of WWI civilians to scorn Americans today. And Anderson recently joined the Proud Boys, so if he legally speaks in public, you can pretend he has physically attacked you because other proud boys attacked other people years ago, so you can 'defend yourself' against his pretend assault.

This is an interesting legal defense. Love to see how it flies.

 

[smartcooky]

Nor do you, I think.

The more I think about this, this kind of thinking is the root of the problem. This weird Continuity of Conciousness thing. You think a fight or hardship taken on by others in a different time and place justifies your actions against others now.

You assimilate the hardships of WWI civilians to scorn Americans today. And Anderson recently joined the Proud Boys, so if he legally speaks in public, you can pretend he has physically attacked you because other proud boys attacked other people years ago, so you can 'defend yourself' against his pretend assault.

Translation: Bbbut 'merica is speshul.

 

[Thermal]

Translation: Bbbut 'merica is speshul.

Downright Qanon reply, that

 

[smartcooky]

Downright Qanon reply, that

Thermal, you seriously do not have the first clue about the threat that fascism and right-wing extremism presents; you just don't. You keep harking back to the Proud Boys and their alleged harmlessness, Fine, they may not be much of a threat NOW, but you can't possibly know that it will remain the case. The fascists of 1920s & 1930s Europe were generally regarded pretty much the way you regard the PBs - harmless, incompetent trouble makers, nothing but a fight club to looking to brawl with communist protesters. Look how dismissing them turned out.

In any case, those of us who have been sounding the alarm to you have moved on to the wider threat imposed by fascism and right wing extremism - you're still stuck defending Proud Boys.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Proud Boys showed up at a MAGA event in NYC and attacked people. Proud Boys street brawls bleeding into routine political discourse, imagine my shock.

I'm sure this isn't a problem.

https://twitter.com/protest_nyc/status/1320429711076564997

Hey look, Proud Boys working "security" at a political event in Omaha featuring a US Representative to Congress as a speaker. Does this count as mainstream politics yet?

https://twitter.com/IGD_News/status/1320469559669735424

 

[smartcooky]

Proud Boys showed up at a MAGA event in NYC and attacked people. Proud Boys street brawls bleeding into routine political discourse, imagine my shock.

I'm sure this isn't a problem.

https://twitter.com/protest_nyc/status/1320429711076564997

Harmless!

Hey look, Proud Boys working "security" at a political event in Omaha featuring a US Representative to Congress as a speaker. Does this count as mainstream politics yet?

https://twitter.com/IGD_News/status/1320469559669735424

Mostly harmless!

Just ask Thermal!

 

[Thermal]

Proud Boys showed up at a MAGA event in NYC and attacked people. Proud Boys street brawls bleeding into routine political discourse, imagine my shock.

Did you link the right twitters to this? Because:

I'm sure this isn't a problem.

https://twitter.com/protest_nyc/status/1320429711076564997

Three fights are claimed. The first shows one fighter, and old guy with the spring baton (a Proud Senior?). The second shows..well, nothing. A cop pushing a blonde woman with a baton in an excited crowd. The third shows two guys in gray wrestling. Further down the comments is a pic of one guy (no indication he is one of the fighters) in a Proud Boys jacket standing still.

None of the fighters are identified as pbs. Any, um...reason you assert this?

Hey look, Proud Boys working "security" at a political event in Omaha featuring a US Representative to Congress as a speaker. Does this count as mainstream politics yet?

https://twitter.com/IGD_News/status/1320469559669735424

Six guys meandering around in front of a chain link fence. Two have what look like MAGA hats. Again, you sure about this story?

Assuming you are 100% clairvoyantly right and these are violently attacking pbs: don't pbs tend to go where they will find antifa to brawl with? Wouldn't they do so in these events, regardless of politics? You know, simply to pick a fight where they find antifa?

 

[Thermal]

Thermal, you seriously do not have the first clue about the threat that fascism and right-wing extremism presents; you just don't. You keep harking back to the Proud Boys and their alleged harmlessness, Fine, they may not be much of a threat NOW, but you can't possibly know that it will remain the case. The fascists of 1920s & 1930s Europe were generally regarded pretty much the way you regard the PBs - harmless, incompetent trouble makers, nothing but a fight club to looking to brawl with communist protesters. Look how dismissing them turned out.

In any case, those of us who have been sounding the alarm to you have moved on to the wider threat imposed by fascism and right wing extremism - you're still stuck defending Proud Boys.

You either haven't read or do not understand a word of the arguments, then. Although I assume you are being hyperbolic in saying I am defending the pbs. You'd have to truly be an idiot to think that after all I have opined about them.

 

[smartcooky]

You either haven't read or do not understand a word of the arguments, then. Although I assume you are being hyperbolic in saying I am defending the pbs. You'd have to truly be an idiot to think that after all I have opined about them.

You might not be defending them for who they are per-se, but you ARE defending a position in which you believe them to be harmless in the wider scheme of things. I believe you are very much mistaken in that position.

I am uncompromising when it comes to fascists and the extreme right-wing... THERE IS NO SUCH THING as a harmless right wing extremist (in fact there is no such thing as a harmless political extremist, full stop!!!)

 

[dudalb]

Actual quotes exist in this thread and quotes have also been provided from other threads.

You have repeatedly dismissed the Proud Boys as “incompetent twats”, despite the numerous violent felonies their members commit. Meanwhile, you’ve apparently signed on to the notion that someone getting punched in the face is a threat to free speech. At the very least, you certainly haven’t called for “perspective” from the person putting forth that notion like you do for anyone who dares to point out the threat the Proud Boys pose.

Meadmaker - who apparently has a Google News Alert for stories about random people getting punched in the face - seems inexplicably unaware of who the Proud Boys are and the numerous crimes far more serious than face-punching that they’ve committed. Weird position to take from someone who is so concerned about politically motivated violence.

Emily’s Cat enjoys criticizing violent rhetoric from the left while she willfully ignores it from the right. That of course doesn’t stop her from conveniently proclaiming that violent rhetoric is the all coming from the left.

Again, this is what normalizing violence looks like.

On some level, you all just accept that it exists on the right and apparently don’t think it’s a big deal.

Left wing violence, however, leads us to concerns that free speech is imperiled and worrying if our daughters are safe walking down the street.

I despise the Proud Boys, but as terrorists they are pretty bush league.

 

[Thermal]

You might not be defending them for who they are per-se, but you ARE defending a position in which you believe them to be harmless in the wider scheme of things. I believe you are very much mistaken in that position.

I am uncompromising when it comes to fascists and the extreme right-wing... THERE IS NO SUCH THING as a harmless right wing extremist (in fact there is no such thing as a harmless political extremist, full stop!!!)

Agreed, and wholeheartedly. My argument is that they are not political extremists, and certainly not The Fash. They are more akin to a prettified street gang. There is a difference.

Btw, I never said they were harmless, despite your repetitions of that. I say they are politically impotent. Again, big difference.

My argument here is that people get lost in their Captain America fantasies, and start to accept behaviors that they would normally reject. Like in this OP: cheering preemptive violent assault. That's a clear sign of a political philosophy going off the rails. I expect it of the bad guys. I don't expect it from the good guys.

 

[Meadmaker]

You might not be defending them for who they are per-se, but you ARE defending a position in which you believe them to be harmless in the wider scheme of things. I believe you are very much mistaken in that position.

I am uncompromising when it comes to fascists and the extreme right-wing... THERE IS NO SUCH THING as a harmless right wing extremist (in fact there is no such thing as a harmless political extremist, full stop!!!)

I think November 3rd and its aftermath will tell us a lot about just how dangerous the extremists are. Regardless of the outcome of the election, and God forbid that there will not be a clear outcome, some people are going to be mightily upset about it. If there is a clear winner, and that clear winner gets named the president-elect as appropriate, we'll see if the losers cause trouble.

If there's no clear winner, we will likewise see if there is a surge of violence from left, right, or both.

Right now, what I see in the country is small groups of people getting a whole lot of press. If it's as bad as you seem to think, I think we will see an escalation of violence in the aftermath of the election. For now, I think these right wing groups are mostly harmless, but I agree that vigilance is warranted.

 

[Thermal]

I think November 3rd and its aftermath will tell us a lot about just how dangerous the extremists are. Regardless of the outcome of the election, and God forbid that there will not be a clear outcome, some people are going to be mightily upset about it. If there is a clear winner, and that clear winner gets named the president-elect as appropriate, we'll see if the losers cause trouble.

If there's no clear winner, we will likewise see if there is a surge of violence from left, right, or both.

Right now, what I see in the country is small groups of people getting a whole lot of press. If it's as bad as you seem to think, I think we will see an escalation of violence in the aftermath of the election. For now, I think these right wing groups are mostly harmless, but I agree that vigilance is warranted.

Prediction, FWIW: Biden wins, and by no small margin. Things go on pretty much like they are now. Trumpers keep on Trumpin, militias keep on practicing insurrection, Qanaons keep on...whatever they do, and protesters keep on protesting, and rioters keep on rioting. The Trumpers might switch to a new 2024 candidate with the same message. Or maybe rebrand their base beliefs to another slicker-sounding name for any new candidate to adopt and stump. But no big escalation.

 

[smartcooky]

I think November 3rd and its aftermath will tell us a lot about just how dangerous the extremists are. Regardless of the outcome of the election, and God forbid that there will not be a clear outcome, some people are going to be mightily upset about it. If there is a clear winner, and that clear winner gets named the president-elect as appropriate, we'll see if the losers cause trouble.

If there's no clear winner, we will likewise see if there is a surge of violence from left, right, or both.

Right now, what I see in the country is small groups of people getting a whole lot of press. If it's as bad as you seem to think, I think we will see an escalation of violence in the aftermath of the election. For now, I think these right wing groups are mostly harmless, but I agree that vigilance is warranted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wp_national

"As campaign season heads into its fraught, final days, police departments across the country are bracing for Election Day, mobilizing officers as they prepare for the possibility of voter intimidation, unrest or violence.

These preparations include extensive planning exercises, efforts to monitor early-voting sites and concerns about how long any unrest could last if the election results are not immediately known or challenged in court.

While law enforcement agencies routinely plan for elections, officials say this year’s preparations are unusually extensive because of the sheer levels of anxiety and toxicity across the country — with fears that a modern American election could give way to potential violence.

“I don’t think we’ve seen anything like this in modern times,” said Andrew Walsh, a deputy chief with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.​

If I was living in a country where the Police are preparing for violence at election voting booths, I'd be concerned.

I hope you are!

 

[Meadmaker]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wp_national

"As campaign season heads into its fraught, final days, police departments across the country are bracing for Election Day, mobilizing officers as they prepare for the possibility of voter intimidation, unrest or violence.

These preparations include extensive planning exercises, efforts to monitor early-voting sites and concerns about how long any unrest could last if the election results are not immediately known or challenged in court.

While law enforcement agencies routinely plan for elections, officials say this year’s preparations are unusually extensive because of the sheer levels of anxiety and toxicity across the country — with fears that a modern American election could give way to potential violence.

“I don’t think we’ve seen anything like this in modern times,” said Andrew Walsh, a deputy chief with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.​

If I was living in a country where the Police are preparing for violence at election voting booths, I'd be concerned.

I hope you are!

Concerned? Yes. But what I expect are a few crazy incidents, hopefully that don't involve anyone getting killed. Police departments all across the country need to be prepared, because they don't know which one of the thousands of possibilities will actually come to pass, so they have to prepare for the worst. I'm concerned, but not panicked.

The thing that makes it truly dangerous is that we have never before had a president who might encourage it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Prediction, FWIW: Biden wins, and by no small margin. Things go on pretty much like they are now. Trumpers keep on Trumpin, militias keep on practicing insurrection, Qanaons keep on...whatever they do, and protesters keep on protesting, and rioters keep on rioting. The Trumpers might switch to a new 2024 candidate with the same message. Or maybe rebrand their base beliefs to another slicker-sounding name for any new candidate to adopt and stump. But no big escalation.

That would largely be my prediction too, with some caveats.

First, Qanon is going to get extra weird. It's been a long, drawn-out promise that Trump was gonna ghost half of DC to Gitmo, and him potentially leaving office with nothing happening will be a major pivot point. I anticipate the "wait and see, Q will save us" approach changes into "the people are Q, take action" as the promise of a top-down purge becomes even more implausible.

I expect an electoral repudiation of Trumpism will make the extreme right extremely unhappy and belligerent, even more so than now. Rather than celebratory rallies, they will be seeking confrontation and vengeance. Messaging for the right will become simpler and more vicious when it's no longer their party at the helm of a failing state.

Even more so if it's a decisive Biden win. These people won't go quietly into the night, and the feeling they are losing control will spur more violence.