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my question to christians

10001

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if you had a chance to save humanity.
would you?

if you had to die to do it,
would you?

if you knew you were a son of the almighty god.
would you sacrifice your self to save the human kind?

if it is so hard for you to make a descision, even now..

what if you also knew that..
you dont really die...
you come back more powerful then ever...
or what ever...

did jesus REALLY " DIE "? for our sins?

what the bloody hec is death to him?
when he rules it?

isnt it like ...

saving a life of an ant which was about to get wet. and your hand got wet.. the Ant thinks " he sacrificed his finger to save me!!!!!" "wow!!!""he is our savior"
he went through such a suffering... the deadly water that we can never be saved from...
he must be son of god!!!

geezzz
 
if you had a chance to save humanity.
would you?

if you had to die to do it,
would you?

I'm another one of those "someone who would have saved the world, but could not save himself" people.

If I had to die to do it would I? Of course, but what value is my sacrifice? For example, what does it say about me if I tell someone I would die for them, yet I dont live for them?

Jesus experienced the human life, became a mere man with the same limitations. Could have called the angels to rescue him but did not do so.

He was a king who was born in a manger and a king who died on a cross.

He was the only one who was ever completely innocent and free of sin, yet he lived a life of sacrifice, and unjustly died in torment.
 
became a mere man with the same limitations.
Tell that to all the winos out there. I think they'd love to hear that Jesus had the same limitations that they do.

I think I'm going to go walk around the local swimming pool now.

(by the way, I don't beleive in any supposed miracles, but I think you do. I'm asking "how do you reconcile the above statement with the belief that jesus was able to perform miracles?)
 
if you had a chance to save humanity.
would you?

if you had to die to do it,
would you?

if you knew you were a son of the almighty god.
would you sacrifice your self to save the human kind?

if it is so hard for you to make a descision, even now..

what if you also knew that..
you dont really die...
you come back more powerful then ever...
or what ever...

did jesus REALLY " DIE "? for our sins?

what the bloody hec is death to him?
when he rules it?

isnt it like ...

saving a life of an ant which was about to get wet. and your hand got wet.. the Ant thinks " he sacrificed his finger to save me!!!!!" "wow!!!""he is our savior"
he went through such a suffering... the deadly water that we can never be saved from...
he must be son of god!!!

geezzz


.. and its a very good question.
 
I'm another one of those "someone who would have saved the world, but could not save himself" people.

If I had to die to do it would I? Of course, but what value is my sacrifice? For example, what does it say about me if I tell someone I would die for them, yet I dont live for them?

Jesus experienced the human life, became a mere man with the same limitations. Could have called the angels to rescue him but did not do so.

He was a king who was born in a manger and a king who died on a cross.

He was the only one who was ever completely innocent and free of sin, yet he lived a life of sacrifice, and unjustly died in torment.

I don't think you understand the question. Jesus's sacrifice was pathetically small. He was man/God. After his suffering (which wasn't the worst anyone had ever endured) he was guaranteed a spot at the right hand of his father for all eternity. He gets to rule over all creation. Poor guy. Makes hell look like a picnic.
 
Tell that to all the winos out there. I think they'd love to hear that Jesus had the same limitations that they do.

I think I'm going to go walk around the local swimming pool now.

(by the way, I don't beleive in any supposed miracles, but I think you do. I'm asking "how do you reconcile the above statement with the belief that jesus was able to perform miracles?)

Limitations as in had to eat, had to sleep, felt cold when it was cold, felt pain whenever he got a booboo, had to learn things as a child, etc.

Jesus's sacrifice was pathetically small. He was man/God. After his suffering (which wasn't the worst anyone had ever endured) he was guaranteed a spot at the right hand of his father for all eternity. He gets to rule over all creation. Poor guy. Makes hell look like a picnic.

So because he conquered evil and hope ended up winning out in the end, that means his suffering and sacrifice was lessened in value? This is like what you suggest about free will, that because God knows about something thats going to happen, somehow means that he doesn't experience it all the same. Moments and experiences were created by God, I think he knows what they are like.

And how do you conclude that it wasn't the worst anyone had ever endured? For certain his life was lived with the most suffering anyone had endured. But i think you're referring to his toture and death. Had you heard that it is possible for a human being to sweat blood under extreme conditions of stress, as Jesus did? I heard a scientist suggest once that this would have somehow made his whippings more painful...I think the physical pain was not even the worst part though, I think the feeling of abandonment he experienced was what hurt the most.
 
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Could have called the angels to rescue him but did not do so.

Oh but he did ask God to spare him .. God said no..

..................................

He was the only one who was ever completely innocent and free of sin, yet he lived a life of sacrifice, and unjustly died in torment.
When you are the one defining sin, of course you can be sinless..
However, if you actually look at the record that ' sinless ' stuff, is a bunch of crap.. According to the stories, Jesus lied, stole and had temper tantrums..

As it has been shown, if Jesus had stayed dead, that would be a sacrifice. As it was, it seemed to have been a temporary inconvenience...
 
Could have called the angels to rescue him but did not do so.

Oh but he did ask God to spare him .. God said no..

Ah but you're forgetting the minor detail about him saying "If it be your will"
 
So because he conquered evil and hope ended up winning out in the end, that means his suffering and sacrifice was lessened in value?
Pretty much, yeah. The value of sacrifice should always be measured against what is available to be sacrificed. Jesus himself understood this concept:

From the Gospel of Luke

21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
21:2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

Jesus' "suffering and sacrifice" seem to me more analogous to the rich men's gifts than to the widow woman's.
 
John 3:16 ASV
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.[/FONT]
I think it is possible that this thread is about this line from the bible.

I, for one, can not imagine why this line resonates with people. What does it mean?

An omnipotent God sent down an entity (referred to as Jesus in English) related to God in some ambiguous way to be tortured to death and in so doing men that believe in the supernatural aspects of this entity are guaranteed eternal life?

This is a bizarre notion. Doesn't this omnipotent God realize that lots of people are never going to have heard of Jesus. And a whole bunch more people are caught up in their own cultural fantasies and thus are just not going to believe in the supernatural aspects of Jesus. And still a whole bunch more have a skeptical nature and are not going to believe in the existence of any supernatural entities without objective evidence which this omnipotent God has decided not to supply.

If this God really wanted to be believed in universally, it should be pretty easy for an omnipotent God to indicate this to all mankind in an unequivocal way that all men can understand. OK, maybe God's not that omnipotent, but still, the best he can muster is to get some guy tortured to death and to get a bunch of people to write contradictory fantasies about the guy?

One thing that can be said for this omnipotent God's plan is that it set in motion the creation of a religion that led to massive, brutal wars. Was this all part of the plan? Maybe, God didn't see enough brutality in the world as it existed so getting a religion going that could eventually lead to the brutal death of millions of people (many of whom believed in the supernatural entity known as Jesus) might have seemed like a good idea for him.

I see no reason to believe more in some kind of strange, loving, omnipotent God that seems incapable of doing anything to constrain the various miseries that mankind is subject to than in a playful, psycopathic God that enjoys looking in on the misery of the people he created. Actually, I see no reason to believe in a supernatural God at all. If he exists and he wants me to worship him, he knows where I am and he can let me know personally.
 
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Ah but you're forgetting the minor detail about him saying "If it be your will"
Why do you think I forgot that ? It's irrelevant ..
Does God do things that are not his will ?
I believe the ' if it's your will ' part, is pretty much a given..


He did ask didn't he ? Seems to contradict your assertion ...
 
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I'm another one of those "someone who would have saved the world, but could not save himself" people.

If I had to die to do it would I? Of course, but what value is my sacrifice? For example, what does it say about me if I tell someone I would die for them, yet I dont live for them?

Jesus experienced the human life, became a mere man with the same limitations. Could have called the angels to rescue him but did not do so.

He was a king who was born in a manger and a king who died on a cross.

He was the only one who was ever completely innocent and free of sin, yet he lived a life of sacrifice, and unjustly died in torment.

What did Jesus save the world from again? Was having his son publicly tortured and murdered really the only way an all-powerful, all-loving god could think up to get his message through? What a bad father, really.
 
Furthermore, why couldn't God have saved us from the last few years of Brett Favre? Haven't we suffered enough? :p

Ow.

In a way Brett is a very generous guy. Many (way too many this year) defenders mistakingly thank god for their interceptions and fumble recoveries rather than #4.
 
Questions for Christians

I think this thread has posed some challenging and significant questions, especially the first 2 posts, but others too, though a far too light-hearted attitude does raise its head out of context to the genuiness of the original post.

The nature of God (i.e. the trinity) is not being fully understood or recognised here, which is detracting from the bigger questions. Jesus is 100% man, so at no point should you need to belittle his contribution, efforts, sacrifice or death.

If it's such an insignificant effort, perhaps you'd care to offer something similar if need be? Even if he knew he would rise again, he still has to go through everything, only instead of just not waking up, he rose, as Christians will also rise. Pain is pain.

More significant than any of the physical torture He encountered, is the Eastern concept/culture of honour and shame. Many would rather commit suicide than suffer the humiliation of being spat at, walking a cross after whipping, the nakedness and being hung in front of the masses. This is something most Westerners can't grasp, even though they hear it verbally.

It was the only way, God becoming incarnate and dying as the only sacrifice great enough. This is the simple, wonderful gospel story. God chose to create man, despite the risk of us rebelling (because of free will which differentiates us from animals, puppets or robots). Remember, like God, we make similar choices - to (pro) create ourselves not knowing what the future holds for our creations/offspring - torture, illness, accident, drugs, prison etc. The greater joy overrides the risk to us, and so with God - who has more control than us, so can more justify creating.

He has provided a way out for all; He has put forth the evidence in Jesus (the Christ of history and faith) that should suffice all generations. God isn't going to perform silly miracle proofs to every generation and town that 'missed' it. He chose a place and time and course of incidents that He felt would justify evidence to all, however many we might deny or refute it.

Remember the conflict between faith and proof. It's silly to give constant or regular proof as it denies the act of faith - a concept we are all aware of and participate in daily. Proof like that would force belief and leave no way to voluntarily choose God. It is quite clever that He should give proof to each individual (which is the whole, but not at once), e.g. conscience or revelation, coupled with evidence from other areas like history, testimony and alleged miracles etc. Of course many will deny this and say how unclear or evidence lacking or inconsistent the Bible is. What happens when many others say the opposite? Both can't be true. There's a lot of rhetoric and bias (on all sides) we need to get through to find the truth.

I have only partially answered this tough question (mainly due to time restraints, though I do address some objections raised if not all). I must reduce my posts (Yippeee!) and time spent here, so will be more selective and restrained in future.
 
Questions to a Christian

I now (in stark contrast perhaps) want to address some of my own particular questions to problems I have had as a long term ex evangelical, so this should be of help and interest to both Christians (especially evangelicals) and critics as a source of inside information to use as you will. So, if evangelicals or fundamentalists interest you from whatever angle, I would encourage you to look at this because much of these are tough questions for them.

This guy perry.marshall@tannah.net. sent me a short series of paragraphs on Christianity entitled ‘the seven lies of organised religion’ from here www.CoffeehouseTheology.com

I have responded to him but it inspired me to write these questions. If you want to discover the confusion between evangelicals, even theologians, try asking selected questions from here and recording or noting or getting in writing the answers, maybe bit by bit of different people. You’ll be amazed at the range, often contradictory of responses. Evangelical should research this too. If you aren’t sure why some questions are posed, ask, because they may be linked to another question or prove contradictory to a later question or scenario.

The main point I pose is that the simplicity of the evangelical gospel message is far from clear.

1. Jesus God and is it necessary (and if so, for what reason) to recognise, believe or know this?

2. Who and/or what is a Christian - definition?

3. Can one know (have assurance NOW) that one is going to heaven?

4. Who gets to heaven and how/what is salvation?

5. Is it by faith alone, works alone or a combination that gets a person salvation?

6. Is salvation all God’s efforts or all ours or a combination?

7. Is the Bible inerrant? Inspired? Largely true? A guide (and if any the latter two, on what basis are things true or not)?

8. If you belong to the Free Church, you are a very new, late and small addition to Christianity who are forever splitting up and fragmenting. Look, Catholics – 1, Anglican’s 1, Orthodox – 1, Protestant Evangelical denominations - thousands. What makes you think that you are more right than them or have more authority in interpreting the Bible and how much do you know about your heritage?

9. What of other religions - any ‘salvific’ truth in any of them?

10. What of deism, pantheism, panentheism, agnosticism and atheism? Are they
options and what of the eternal destiny of such adherents?

11. What of other denominations, others who pray and worship, believe in (and follow) Jesus and different interpretations of the Bible that are at variance
to your own on significant issues?

12. Was the death of Jesus absolutely necessary with no other way possible?
 
Questions to ask a Christian

13. Depending on the definition you attribute to a Christian/believer/someone going to heaven, (I am putting them as virtual synonyms here) What of the eternal destiny of the following. Please don’t be nice or waffle, just be straight please:

· Those who have never heard of Jesus or the gospel

· Those who are too young

Those mentally unable to grasp even the basics of Christianity?

· Those who are intellectually honest, study the Bible, (and perhaps
find too much error, a nasty God or unethical aspects) and seek 'the
truth' based on common sense and/or other (perhaps or perhaps not Holy) literature that seems more trustworthy or ethical to them?

· What of uncultured tribes people who have no contact with civilisation?

· What of aborted babies?

· What of babies?

· What of children?

· What of a convert who subsequently exaggerates? Lies? Steels? Rapes? Murders? Is there any difference – is sin all the same or are there degrees and different consequences?

· What of a mass murderer/lifelong badness of someone who has a death bed confession?

· What of the person who, upon lying on his deathbed, seeks God but knows not where to find him other than his own (if any) experience?

· What should an African polygamist of another religion do (with his wives) if he gets converted, if anything?


· What of those who commit suicide (e.g. after being raped or during torture)?

· What of people who lived before Jesus?

· What if there are intelligent aliens?

· When does life begin, at conception? What if a baby is created from body stem cells (as is possible now) and bi-passes egg/sperm conception – does it have a soul and if so, from where does the soul come and if not, is such a being human of potential heaven material?

· If a lifelong Christian and active worker for God has a deathbed de-conversion, claiming that she believes that God does not exist (as so implying that Jesus didn’t take her sin away and she rejects it), then is she saved?

· What is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, can a Christian do this and what are the consequences?

· What is the purpose (other than feeling nice) of regular confession if sin was dealt with at conversion?

· If confession is necessary, then what of sins committed in between and does it matter how big they are or the time that passes?

· If you believe in miracles and healing today, and you accept that preachers openly invite people for healing and love to testify to the world (often with any evidence they can get, waving in their hands from the pulpit) that God is working, and you recognise the very natural and testable results a supernatural healing can in theory produce, then given these basics, would you agree that it is reasonable for someone (e.g. someone who is new to all this), to take up the offer or challenge of the preacher or ‘cured’, given that it may have been the healer (without prompting or request) that instigated the claims of evidence, e.g. the doctor said, so and so hospital has verified, the scans reveal etc.

· What if a hard of hearing guy from Africa, during an evangelistic meeting there, mishears the renowned preacher and hears a similar name to Jesus and in faithful trust in the preacher, goes on to find an African god called Jabus and worships it, forms a denomination and goes on like this. It does not matter whether Christian or other rituals exist, the question is, is salvation possible? It seems that when evangelicals are asked to explain what a Christian is, it is very regimented. For a person to pick up a Bible and read it, even study it, he/she would be very hard pressed to establish the 4 fold evangelical set routine, which isn’t really flexible.

· Why must someone have to speak your jargon or terminology in order to be a Christian? For example, the evangelical would insist on four things (in roughly this order) to happen in order to be saved or be ‘born again’. Fist, you must acknowledge God, then you must acknowledge your sin, then you must repent (from the heart) for your sin, then you must accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, who alone can deal with your sin. Now there is a ‘Roman road’ or ‘sinners prayer’ common/well known to a d taught in most evangelical churches. The term ‘born again’, (used just in John 3, the home of the famous passage ‘for God so loved the world…’ which no-one knows who said it) is used to death as though it were (or interpreted as) the most important term in the Bible, yet many topics are spoken of hundreds of times, suggesting far grater importance. So if God were somehow to speak to someone outside of the evangelical church, if their experience did not basically fit this 4 part scenario mentioned above, they would be considered not saved and have to go through the right motions to make sure. Now based on terminology (the right buzz words) or a failure to recognise that God may use other means, names or terms or experiences, a typical evangelical would understand such a person not to be saved.

· If someone is a Jehovah’s Witness and been with them for several years, it will be well acknowledged by evangelicals that such a person is not a Christian. Why? Lots of reasons, but heresy, non Trinitarians, reject Jesus as God, reject miracles etc. But hang on a minute. None of this is in the conversion experience. Now what if this person actually got converted on a visit to an evangelical church, but went elsewhere the following week and were made so welcome that she/he decided to stay? This situation would greatly confuse most evangelicals and answers would vary? ‘God would not direct a believer to such a Church’. ‘God would speak to the person and the nature of Jesus would somehow be unfolded.’ Let an evangelical speak on this and say whether such a person is a welcome, heaven bound brother or a
damned sinner.

14. Why do so many evangelical Christians have such a problem with drink, when there is no scripture to denounce it (except logically ‘in excess’ as we all agree to in theory), yet the Churches are full of obese gluttons, when the very (inspired for all time) Bible itself puts gluttony in the same category as adultery and homosexuality, yet they dismiss it or evade it?

15. Regarding the sacraments, why do so many Bible literalists not use wine (rather juice) or bread (rather a wafer) or not have a meal like happened in the NT or partake so rarely now?

16. Why are so many evangelicals so opposed to other denominations (especially Catholics and they know nothing of the Orthodox Church – and you KNOW this is right) yet their very foundations and roots are there. For 1000 to 1500 years or up to ¾ of all Church history, there was ONLY the original Church that God was preserving – so why feel/teach such bad about them or bite the hand that fed you, whatever they believe now? Respect for your elders!
Could you be wrong or have an erroneous interpretation?

17. Could you have been taken up the garden path, indoctrinated,
brainwashed or otherwise influenced in your beliefs or findings? For
example, most groups/denominations that have opposing, incompatible or
contradictory beliefs based on the same God, book and Spirit all think
that they CAN'T be wrong and often for the same reasons.

18. Could another equally convinced, equally convicted person or group
with an alternative interpretation (possibly of the same Holy book)
with equal belief and conviction as to the explanation, e.g. that God
would not show them something wrong or wrongly interpret it or the
Holy spirit led them and confirmed things etc.?

19. In other words, (to summarize the last few questions) is there something, (as most of the many different belief systems or
interpretations believe), that makes you right and them wrong? Is it
(or has God made things) so really crystal clear that so justify the
fate of all others?

20. If accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour is the only way as a result of His death, then how come so many exceptions? If God CAN make exceptions sometimes, He could always, which then defeats the object of the necessity of the cross and He SHOULD make exceptions and WOULD, because He is not willing that any should perish.

These queries need addressing to deal with the apparent flaws in the supposed simple Gospel story of evangelicalism.
 

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