• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

Status
Not open for further replies.
So women have worn make up for thousands of years due to male pressure

It's complicated. Are you saying there is no pressure involved? What about the accounts of the women in this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/careers/2016/jun/07/dress-code-discrimination-stories-workplace

No, none of them were sacked, but the pressure was obviously there based on their accounts.

I think saying that all women wear makeup voluntarily is an oversimplification, just as it would be an oversimplification to claim that women wear makeup because of the patriarchy.
 
It's complicated. Are you saying there is no pressure involved? What about the accounts of the women in this article:



https://www.theguardian.com/careers/2016/jun/07/dress-code-discrimination-stories-workplace



No, none of them were sacked, but the pressure was obviously there based on their accounts.



I think saying that all women wear makeup voluntarily is an oversimplification, just as it would be an oversimplification to claim that women wear makeup because of the patriarchy.
No idea.

A lot of women wear make up.

Even when not at work.

Why?
 
Actually that is a point . You seem to be saying women are forced to wear it for work.

All good.

Why do they do it at weekends?
 
To hide skin blemishes and facial defects each perceives in themselves. Most others wouldn't care nor notice.

If my wife has anything to say on the matter at least.
 
And? Men get pressured into workplace dress codes too.

Is the cost/time requirements for male grooming requirements equivalent? I suspect not.

It is much more acceptable for men to conventionally unattractive and do nothing to remedy that.
 
So why don't men?

Men do other things to patch up holes in their confidence.

I think a lot of "oppression" of women is down to gender roles in society. And men have just as much pressure to conform to those gender roles as women do. It's true that gender roles in society give some men a lot of privilege and power, including power over women, but also power over other men. Meanwhile, gender roles in society have men disproportionately doing the most stressful and risky jobs in society.

If women being oppressed by gender roles is the standard of measurement, then body count alone makes men far more oppressed by gender roles than women. Historically and in the present day. Even more so in the present day, when many of the oppressions against women have been weakened or abolished, but men are still overrepresented in life-threatening roles in society.
 
Is the cost/time requirements for male grooming requirements equivalent? I suspect not.

No, it isn't.

On the other hand, women will judge men by signifiers of wealth (such as his car or house) more than men judge women, and those costs can be far larger than grooming costs.

You shouldn't look for or expect equality in all these things. Women and men are attracted to different things, and what it takes to appeal to women and to men is therefore different as well. That isn't oppression. And to the extent that what it takes to be attractive to the opposite sex is unfair, the primary unfairness is actually within each sex. Some women are fundamentally more attractive to men than other women, and some men are fundamentally more attractive to women than other men. And those differences can be huge, and impossible to overcome no matter how much time and money you spend. That isn't fair, at all. But you cannot change that basic reality.
 
No, it isn't.

On the other hand, women will judge men by signifiers of wealth (such as his car or house) more than men judge women, and those costs can be far larger than grooming costs.

You shouldn't look for or expect equality in all these things. Women and men are attracted to different things, and what it takes to appeal to women and to men is therefore different as well. That isn't oppression. And to the extent that what it takes to be attractive to the opposite sex is unfair, the primary unfairness is actually within each sex. Some women are fundamentally more attractive to men than other women, and some men are fundamentally more attractive to women than other men. And those differences can be huge, and impossible to overcome no matter how much time and money you spend. That isn't fair, at all. But you cannot change that basic reality.

I'm talking about workplace dress code requirements, not mating selection or more nebulous norms.

It was very common, and still remains in some sectors, for "professional dress" to require much more of women, such as uncomfortable high heels or makeup. Men are generally required to appear tidy, but women have higher expectations that go well beyond being hygienic and into striving towards certain cosmetic standards.

What men or women choose to do in their free time is a separate conversation to whether employers require disparate standards from their employees.
 
I am not going to read some essay over it

It was a simple question


Individual women may have their individual reasons, but in general? IMO it's a mindless herd thing. They do it coz they do it. They do it coz they don't stop to think why they're doing it.

Me, I find make-up, and especially loud make-up, a put off. Lipstick on a pig thing. If you're a looker, you'll look good with good normal grooming. If you're not, then you'll only look silly if you try to mask that.

This is at a personal level. On TV or the movies or a photoshoot or a public appearance from afar, sure, it can work. For women, as well as men, if skillfully done (should someone want to). But girl I'm with, I'll only be repelled if she comes at me daubed in paint, even if that daubing is subtly done. (If it's so subtle I don't even notice it, then that's something I can't speak to!)

Fortunately my GF agrees with my theory. And fortunately she's one of those that don't need it in the first place.

Like with most stereotypes, half of it, no most of it, is in your own mind, more than anything else. Man, woman, trans, whatever, just do your thing. Wear the war paint if you want to, not just because it's the done thing. I'm sure a good many women will find they don't really want to.
 
I am not going to read some essay over it

It was a simple question

Not really an essay:

[...]

Participants were asked if they “felt any pressure to
wear makeup”. Of the 130 women who responded, 51.5% answered “No” and 48.5% answered “Yes.”

[...]

The second question asked participants if they would continue to wear makeup products even if it had no impact on the way that others thought of them. One hundred twenty-nine participants responded. Of those, 72.1% answered “Yes” and 27.9% said “No.”

[...]

But to answer your question: Because they believe it makes them look better.

Why does this answer matter?
 
Men are pressured to dress in a way that makes them look clean and dapper, women are pressured to dress in a way that is appealing to men.

Which is to say, men are also pressured to dress in a way that is appealing to (other) men.

And of course men are also pressured to do other things that make them appealing to women.
 
I'm talking about workplace dress code requirements, not mating selection or more nebulous norms.

It was very common, and still remains in some sectors, for "professional dress" to require much more of women, such as uncomfortable high heels or makeup. Men are generally required to appear tidy, but women have higher expectations that go well beyond being hygienic and into striving towards certain cosmetic standards.

I know of no dress code requirements for makeup, though I cannot claim expertise in the subject. Can you give me a specific current example?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom