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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Take makeup and high heels for example. I think an argument can be made that historically both of these things have been directly and indirectly imposed upon women, as they are expected to look a certain way, and in many places, even in the civilised world, there are still instances where such things are prescriptive. Feminism has often fought against such prescriptions and attitudes. But many transwomen want to wear female makeup and high heels as they consider it an element of femininity.

It's weird, but it flies a little under the radar because female makeup and high heels are relatively tame. But then there were things like foot binding in China. In those times, would certain transwomen in the right social class consider binding their feet because it was considered feminine?
 
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Take makeup and high heels for example. I think an argument can be made that historically both of these things have been directly and indirectly imposed upon women, as they are expected to look a certain way, and in many places, even in the civilised world, there are still instances where such things are prescriptive. Feminism has often fought against such prescriptions and attitudes. But many transwomen want to wear female makeup and high heels as they consider it an element of femininity.

It's weird, but it flies a little under the radar because female makeup and high heels are relatively tame. But then there were things like foot binding in China. In those times, would certain transwomen in the right social class consider binding their feet because it was considered feminine?
Sorry but that is crap.

Women wear it to look good.

Same as blokes wearing singlets and trying to look butch.

We have all been teenagers before
 
Actually. Why do you think women used natural substances on their faces to highlight things before make up was invented
 
We don't live in medieval China.

And no.

They as women chose to.

Why?

But women have been fired for refusing to wear makeup. Women have been fired for refusing to wear high heels. This was even worse only a few decades ago. If it's all about a woman's choice, why has society actively prescribed both makeup and high heels in a variety of situations regardless of a woman's choice?
 
But women have been fired for refusing to wear makeup. Women have been fired for refusing to wear high heels. This was even worse only a few decades ago. If it's all about a woman's choice, why has society actively prescribed both makeup and high heels in a variety of situations regardless of a woman's choice?
Give me an example less than 20 years old and I actually promise to be on your side.
 
The refusing to wear make up is a new one BTW.

Do you mind posting links to the women being sacked
 
Yes, your pets are being oppressed, and the only reason keeping pets is considered to be okay is because other animals are worth less in the eyes of humans. You have absolute power over them, and their freedom only extends as far as you will allow it. Depending on where you live and the type of pets you have, you might have subjected them to medical treatments in order to bring their behaviour more in line with what you desire.
I haven’t subjected my cats to any “oppressive” medical treatment, such as having them declawed, if that’s what you’re alluding to. I think their right to defend themselves trumps the right of my furniture, and yes even my arm sometimes (ow!) from being scratched. This is important, because I let them outside to play and hunt, because I value their freedom, and ability to be cats. This is often itself criticized for its affects on local wildlife, but the alternative is to keep fat and miserable indoor cats, which I think is even more inhumane, personally.

I don’t have nor want “absolute power” over them, nor do I think other animals are “worth less”. I think they’re cute, they make common pets, and they needed a home.

But the comparison to pets is apt. Women were considered to be worth less than men, and their freedom only extended as far as the men "owning" them would allow it. In the right circumstances, they could lead a great life, but they could never work towards a great life. And in the wrong circumstances? Anything from a complete lack of agency to terrible abuse at the hands of their owners.
I think women are demonstrably inferior in some ways, and demonstrably superior in others. I view them as human beings, not variables in some utility function. I think there is an under-recognized social cost in their so-called emancipation, which is mostly born by children, that is to say, all of us. There are other costs as well, for example, I think their relative lack of physical strength makes them poor firefighters. I would prefer that firefighters be selected on merit, given the life or death stakes of that profession. Should the odd brute woman that would merit a firefighter force male firefighters to accept her by way of feminism, politics, and state power? Maybe, but I would prefer not. That would require separate showers, bathrooms, and other accommodations which would be a waste of resources not unrelated to the idea of separate transgender bathrooms. Society would probably be better off if the noble dreams of female firefighters went unrealized, and that goes for men who seek employment in female dominated professions as well. It’s not that I absolutely object to women in such a profession, I object to the use of force. If a woman would be willing to conform to the demands of formally male dominated professions and she is good enough that males would accept her with no other concessions, then fine.
The comparison of women to pets is very apt and also absolutely horrifying.

It’s apt, but it doesn’t really capture the essence of the relationship, which is based on human love. We “own” our children, but that doesn’t mean we have the right to destroy them, or transfer (sell) them as we (theoretically) do with pets. It means we have the right to make decisions on behalf of our children, and that children should be obedient. Neither are women like children either, and one could reasonably say that males are “property” (in a similar limited sense) of their female spouses, with all the restrictions.


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Just post an example of a woman being sacked for not wearing make up

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-dec-29-na-harrahs29-story.html

But fair enough, it's hard to find examples of women being explicitly sacked for not wearing makeup. Pressured to wear makeup then.


She ain't that hard a question

Why do most women freely wear make yp

To look good. But beauty standards don't exist in a vacuum. That's why they change.

I think there are many women who don't want to wear makeup, but feel pressured to do so. Do you disagree with that?
 
Take makeup and high heels for example. I think an argument can be made that historically both of these things have been directly and indirectly imposed upon women, as they are expected to look a certain way, and in many places, even in the civilised world, there are still instances where such things are prescriptive. Feminism has often fought against such prescriptions and attitudes. But many transwomen want to wear female makeup and high heels as they consider it an element of femininity.
It’s not so much that makeup and high heels are/were imposed, its that it is a natural consequence of the spheres within which women compete. Women are beautiful, and are venerated for their beauty, its the essence of their power. Men are venerated for their strength, the essence of their power. As such, makeup and high heels should be the primary enemy of the feminist, but then the feminist is left to compete for male jobs in male spheres with males. This wouldn’t turn out well if not for the imposition of the state, which is ironically controlled by opportunistic patriarchs (of which all men are condemned to be, by feminists)

It's weird, but it flies a little under the radar because female makeup and high heels are relatively tame. But then there were things like foot binding in China. In those times, would certain transwomen in the right social class consider binding their feet because it was considered feminine?

Foot binding, and genital mutilation obviously cross well over the line of beautification into torture and abuse. Such transwomen wouldn’t be indulged in less civilized times as any other form of mental illness.


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https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-dec-29-na-harrahs29-story.html

But fair enough, it's hard to find examples of women being explicitly sacked for not wearing makeup. Pressured to wear makeup then.




To look good. But beauty standards don't exist in a vacuum. That's why they change.

I think there are many women who don't want to wear makeup, but feel pressured to do so. Do you disagree with that?

So women have worn make up for thousands of years due to male pressure
 
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