Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[cullennz]

Sure, men were conscripted into service (when there was a compulsory draft) and women weren’t. None of the ways that men were unfairly treated would necessarily alter any unfairness in how women have been treated, and vice versa.

Crock of though.

It wasn't that long ago, unless you were a lord or some other member of the top upper class no one could vote. For example. Chick or bloke.

Mid 1800"s

People go on about the struggle for women to get it. And yes normal dudes got it first. But it was.

A) as big a struggle for the normal blokes (though may have been easier. No idea. Wasn't born)

B)everyone women or man who wasn't rich were treated like ****

Here you couldn't vote unless you owned a certain value of land.

And that is again blokes as well as women

(I by no means want to downplay the effort and sacrifice of sufferage with this post)

 

[Paul2]

Crock of though.

It wasn't that long ago, unless you were a lord or some other member of the top upper class no one could vote. For example. Chick or bloke.

Mid 1800"s

People go on about the struggle for women to get it. And yes normal dudes got it first. But it was.

A) as big a struggle for the normal blokes (though may have been easier. No idea. Wasn't born)

B)everyone women or man who wasn't rich were treated like ****

Here you couldn't vote unless you owned a certain value of land.

And that is again blokes as well as women

(I by no means want to downplay the effort and sacrifice of sufferage with this post)

That some things were equivalent for men and women does not mean that all things were equivalent for men and women. And the difference can be significant.

 

[cullennz]

That some things were equivalent for men and women does not mean that all things were equivalent for men and women. And the difference can be significant.

Fair point. But you can't just pretend most things weren't based on class and not sex.

As I said

In NZ for example. Blokes who didn't own land only got the vote 14 years before women did.

(Tbf. We were the first to give it to women)

People seem to forget or not bother how crap life was in those days for all people. Women and men.

Most blokes weren't walking around ordering around women.

They were working their ***** off trying to provide for their family being paid crap. While the wife was working her **** off trying to run the place and kids as the pill wasn't invented yet.

 

[Tippit]

Really? A woman was considered to be her father's property until she got married and then became her husband's property. No opression? Really?

I own pets, they are my property. I love them with all my heart, and provide them with a great life. Are they oppressed?

My point is, while there have been historical disadvantages exclusive to women, there have also been historical advantages exclusive to being women.

 

[Tippit]

Must be tough finding allies as a pro-feminism, anti-trans person. Plenty of anti-trans animus out there, but only if you're willing to accept all the other regressive nonsense that comes along with it. Obviously trans affirming feminists want little to do with their bigoted cousins. C'est la vie.

The TERF road is a lonely one it seems.

It's funny how toxic the terms "progressive" and "regressive" are in political context. Implicit in their use is that those claiming to be progressive have the logical and just position by default. As if affirming mental illness in a tiny minority and overturning society in order to indulge and accommodate them is anything other than regressive.

 

[cullennz]

Meanwhile back to sport.

Last night our men's amateur netball team week enders beat our national women's team who are paid professionals and current world champions 60-57.

 

[d4m10n]

ema/emac/emacs

Well played, sir.

 

[Olmstead]

I own pets, they are my property. I love them with all my heart, and provide them with a great life. Are they oppressed?

My point is, while there have been historical disadvantages exclusive to women, there have also been historical advantages exclusive to being women.

Yes, your pets are being oppressed, and the only reason keeping pets is considered to be okay is because other animals are worth less in the eyes of humans. You have absolute power over them, and their freedom only extends as far as you will allow it. Depending on where you live and the type of pets you have, you might have subjected them to medical treatments in order to bring their behaviour more in line with what you desire.

But the comparison to pets is apt. Women were considered to be worth less than men, and their freedom only extended as far as the men "owning" them would allow it. In the right circumstances, they could lead a great life, but they could never work towards a great life. And in the wrong circumstances? Anything from a complete lack of agency to terrible abuse at the hands of their owners.

The comparison of women to pets is very apt and also absolutely horrifying.

 

[cullennz]

Yes, your pets are being oppressed, and the only reason keeping pets is considered to be okay is because other animals are worth less in the eyes of humans. You have absolute power over them, and their freedom only extends as far as you will allow it. Depending on where you live and the type of pets you have, you might have subjected them to medical treatments in order to bring their behaviour more in line with what you desire.



But the comparison to pets is apt. Women were considered to be worth less than men, and their freedom only extended as far as the men "owning" them would allow it. In the right circumstances, they could lead a great life, but they could never work towards a great life. And in the wrong circumstances? Anything from a complete lack of agency to terrible abuse at the hands of their owners.



The comparison of women to pets is very apt and also absolutely horrifying.

Or you could take 2 seconds to Google "list of Queens regent" and learn this is wrong.

 

[cullennz]

Or if too lazy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_queens_regnant

 

[Olmstead]

Or you could take 2 seconds to Google "list of Queens regent" and learn this is wrong.

What's your point? Monarchs are hardly representative of the average person. But yes, if a woman was born into the royal family or into similar circumstances where she had a claim to the throne and there were no suitable male successors, she had got it made. But for some strange reason, male progeny were still first in the queue. Hmm. It's almost as if men were considered more valuable.

 

[cullennz]

What's your point? Monarchs are hardly representative of the average person. But yes, if a woman was born into the royal family or into similar circumstances where she had a claim to the throne and there were no suitable male successors, she had got it made. But for some strange reason, male progeny were still first in the queue. Hmm. It's almost as if men were considered more valuable.

Thought I had already made it clear posts ago.

Unless you were one of them, or slightly lower. The rights of both men and women were crap

 

[cullennz]

Now you could argue out of the people being treated like crap the women had it worse than than the men being treated like crap.

But a bit if realism.

And let's be frank. It is 2020. So who gives a toss

 

[Olmstead]

Now you could argue out of the people being treated like crap the women had it worse than than the men being treated like crap.

But a bit if realism.

And let's be frank. It is 2020. So who gives a toss

Well, there's that whole anti-abortion thing going on for one. Also, a lot of places in the world still treat women like crap.

 

[cullennz]

Okay. And the rights of women were far more crap. Or are you disputing that?

Not at all.

Just don't use stupid historical arguments.

 

[cullennz]

That was too gruff sorry.

Just talk about their rights now.

In your arguments and I will probably agree depending on them.

 

[cullennz]

Well, there's that whole anti-abortion thing going on for one. Also, a lot of places in the world still treat women like crap.

There are places that treat men and women like crap if they disagree with dogma.

I agree women are treated worse in some places though.

To compare this to 2020 western society is a bit silly though

 

[Olmstead]

There are places that treat men and women like crap if they disagree with dogma.

I agree women are treated worse in some places though.

To compare this to 2020 western society is a bit silly though

This has all veered very off-topic anyway. The original point was that gender stereotypes are bad for women and that transwomen often reinforce those gender stereotypes and thus make things worse for women. Opression might be a strong word, but would you agree that gender stereotypes still negatively affect what women can do with their lives almost everywhere?

 

[cullennz]

This has all veered very off-topic anyway. The original point was that gender stereotypes are bad for women and that transwomen often reinforce those gender stereotypes and thus make things worse for women. Opression might be a strong word, but would you agree that gender stereotypes still negatively affect what women can do with their lives almost everywhere?

What I think is women and Trans women need to have a chat.

Women have worked hard for the rights they have.

And some bloke thinking he is a woman shouldn't threaten this.

That said. Trans women think they are women .And while not understanding can sympathize.

Maybe they just need to go through the same struggle as your average dude and female did.

 

[cullennz]

Probably didn't explain properly.

I think women have fought enough for their rights without blokes who genuinely think they are women screwing everything up.


The odd bit is it all seems to be the women end as blokes tend to not give a **** who is in their bit.

But get it is more sensitive