Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

[dann]

It is only here at this forum, by you and Dann that I hear about the psychopathy of Anders Tegnell et al, and given what I see every day, I do not agree with what you are saying.

If I have some time this afternoon, I will give you and the others an impression of Tegnell's behavior at press briefings about the pandemic. With several quotations, as usual. I think the Swedish media are beginning to catch on to him, but I think it takes courage to go up against him and Swedish consensus culture.

 

[lionking]

It's possible. I'm not in denial. I am working with the facts I have at hand.

I live in Sweden and am inundated by Swedish media and politicians and scientists through media. It is only here at this forum, by you and Dann that I hear about the psychopathy of Anders Tegnell et al, and given what I see every day, I do not agree with what you are saying.

I’m saying Sweden’s management of the pandemic has been a disastrous failure. The infection and death rates are evidence of that. If you think otherwise the onus is on you. And saying “but I’m happy” won’t cut it.

 

[Architect]

It's possible. I'm not in denial. I am working with the facts I have at hand.

I live in Sweden and am inundated by Swedish media and politicians and scientists through media. It is only here at this forum, by you and Dann that I hear about the psychopathy of Anders Tegnell et al, and given what I see every day, I do not agree with what you are saying.

The language used by Dann in respect of senior Swedish Government figures does, on occasion, tend towards hyperbole. That, however, does not mean that he's incorrect about the efficacy of the Swedish response.


Let's take this as an example:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/

Health Warning: I've not fact-checked the data interrogation. Differences in recording causes of death, for example, vary from country to country.

Of course it's hardly a glowing endorsement of, amongst others, the UK. But the Westiminster Government's exceptionbally poor handling is the stuff of endless daily press coverage and public criticism.

 

[uke2se]

The language used by Dann in respect of senior Swedish Government figures does, on occasion, tend towards hyperbole. That, however, does not mean that he's incorrect about the efficacy of the Swedish response.


Let's take this as an example:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/

Health Warning: I've not fact-checked the data interrogation. Differences in recording causes of death, for example, vary from country to country.

Of course it's hardly a glowing endorsement of, amongst others, the UK. But the Westiminster Government's exceptionbally poor handling is the stuff of endless daily press coverage and public criticism.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's that easy to make a judgement about the response to an ongoing situation. As it is right now, we are no worse off than anyone else (with a few notable exceptions: good on ya, Aussies and Kiwis), and we also aren't suffering from lockdown fatigue. I can see the benefits of doing what our leaders have decided, and I don't see any pressing reason for why to change course now, especially when things appear to be working. If we go back to a situation where thousands of people in old-folks homes start dying again I will reconsider.

 

[dann]

You will reconsider if thousands of people start dying again?!
You seem to be blissfully unaware that if thousands of people start dying again, it will be much too late to save those thousands of lives, just as it is impossible now to save the 5,918 who have already died.

I am surprised that you think that Swedes "are no worse off than anyone else", but I am even more surprised that you need to go to the other side of the Earth to find the exceptions. It would be much more obvious to look at the two countries Sweden shares borders with, Norway and Finland.

And as for your lack of Sweden's freedom from "lockdown fatigue", it might have sounded much more credible if you hadn't already mentioned that you will "concentrate on hunkering down and making the best of the situation" while you are waiting for the "reckoning". (post 2482)
There are many countries with lockdowns where people haven't suffered much fatigue, but it seems to be possible to suffer pandemic fatigue in countries without lockdowns, too:

"A certain fatigue is setting in, this has been going on for a number of months," said Carlson. "But we are not seeing anger or aggression, we're not seeing the same reactions as in Europe."
Sweden's coronavirus measures could remain in place for 'at least another year' (TheLocal.se, Oct. 5, 2020)

The "same reactions as in Europe" is nothing but Swedish cherry picking. People in many countries in Europe see much less "anger and aggression" than Sweden does, but it appears to be essential for Swedish nationalism to stay in denial of the fact.
It's the one thing you share with Clutch Cargo, in spite of all your differences.

 

[dann]

The language used by Dann in respect of senior Swedish Government figures does, on occasion, tend towards hyperbole.

I don't think it's hyperbole when I am talking about Tegnell and Giesecke. Do you want to see hyperbole?

Opsigtsvækkende udtalelse fra Tegnell: 'Ikke farligere end at gå over et fodgængerfelt' (BT, Oct. 16, 2020)
Sensational statement from Tegnell: ’No more dangerous than crossing the road in a crosswalk’

I guess at this point of his many press briefings and interviews, he has used up the comparison with influenza. I have no idea how many Swedish pedestrians are killed in crosswalks, but I think it takes at least a century to kill 6,000 of them.
Hur många personer dödas årligen i trafiken i Sverige?

 

[Architect]

Referring to someone as being is some manner a psychopath, or a similar adjective for their strategy, would tend towards hyperbole I'm afraid. Don't go all "Ace of Base" on me.¹









1. When interviewed on BBC Radio 1 in 1993 about their song "All that she wants is another baby", the Swedish band tried to argue about the meaning and context of the term "baby" in that sentence meaning boyfriend with people who's first language was English. It was a hoot. Linn and Jenny both up their own beam ends bigtime.

 

[dann]

I am familiar with Ace of Base and their Swenglish lyrics.

Tegnell and Giesecke are like Trump with a science degree, and the Swedish establishment is like the GOP. The history of pandemics will be hard on them, but unlike uke2se, I don't take comfort in the idea of a reckoning. There is still much that can be done to prevent further deaths caused by the Swedish strategy - in Sweden as well as in the countries inspired by Sweden's (apparent) success story.

Did you read the article?
The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. It Shouldn’t Be a Model for the Rest of the World (Time, Oct. 14, 2020)

 

[lionking]

As a comparison to Sweden, my state of Victoria (6.5m) reached a peak of 700 infections a day in early August. Yesterday it was 2, today 1 ( with one reclassified, so net zero).

How did we do this? Hard lockdown, 5 km restrictions on permitted movement, large scale testing and contact tracing. We will be opening up cautiously tomorrow, and more again the week later.

Responsible government works.

 

[EHocking]

Dunno if Victoria is much to boast about.
While it’s mortality rate per capital of 122 / million is certainly less than Sweden’s 580 (475% worse than Victoria),
it is 2628% worse than the rest of Australia’s states combined (4.64) and accounts for 90% of the deaths in Australia.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Dunno if Victoria is much to boast about.
While it’s mortality rate per capital of 122 / million is certainly less than Sweden’s 580 (475% worse than Victoria),
it is 2628% worse than the rest of Australia’s states combined (4.64) and accounts for 90% of the deaths in Australia.

I think that's the entire point. Victoria got hit really hard when the virus escaped isolation and it ran rampant, creating a lot of cases per day, and making the number of deaths spike. But they have managed to bring it under control and stop it by taking the appropriate actions. It shows that it's actually possible to control it. If there is a political will to do so.

 

[EHocking]

I think that's the entire point. Victoria got hit really hard when the virus escaped isolation and it ran rampant, creating a lot of cases per day, and making the number of deaths spike. But they have managed to bring it under control and stop it by taking the appropriate actions. It shows that it's actually possible to control it. If there is a political will to do so.

Demonstrated by all other states except for Victoria. Total deaths went from 100 or so in July to over 900 now.

Deaths. Victoria’s per capital death rate is over 26 x that of all other states combined. Nothing to brag about. That second wave that dwarfs the country’s initial outbreak is mostly due to a government cock-up of their mandated and run hotel quarantine.

COVID response in Australia is like the Spice Girls.
Victoria ruined it for everyone.

 

[Clutch Cargo]

WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19)

Data last updated: 2020/10/16, 4:11pm CES

Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:

U.S. 59,106
Australia 21
Sweden 0
Denmark 430
New Zealand 4

Interesting this! The U.S. has gone up by nearly 20,000 cases. Australia is fairly steady by yesterday’s tally. New Zealand has doubled – so much for “eliminating” the virus in that county. Denmark doubled its new cases yesterday and today continues with that double figure trend – that is to say that Denmark is increasing its percentages by leaps and bounds in new cases of Corona virus. Sweden is the only country turning in zero new cases as it has done day after day. Now that’s what is called “elimination” ….. if you believe in such things

It is certainly true that Sweden is being questioned about its ethics in reporting new cases but let’s face it, the media outside of WHO all have political investments/benefactors and if you rely upon those then you are without doubt a victim of political propaganda. The fact is that there is no reliable source for “the whole picture” so upholding one source over another one is simply fooling oneself and picking whatever suits your own, personal agenda and prejudices. That’s OK as long as you don’t convince yourself that you’ve got “insight”. You don’t. This is particularly true when making comments about the personal character and mental state of responsible authorities. You know nothing about them at all (other than what you’ve read in some rag) and anyone claiming that he/she does have "insight" is merely providing a window into his/her own weakness of character.

 

[dann]

Friday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 16, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 585 (5,918) 793* 30 *according to SVT.se. No new Swedish numbers Saturday to Monday.
Denmark: 117 (677) 418 16
Finland: 63 (351) 189 6
Norway: 51 (278) 136 5
Iceland: 32 (11*) 92 4 *Iceland had one Covid-19 death today; the first one in months, I think. With the small population of Iceland, this means that it jumps from 29 to 32 Covid-19 deaths per million.
Iceland has 1,205 active cases, Faroe Islands 11, New Zealand 42.
The Faroe Islands have 80 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
Two new Covid cases (KVF.fo, Oct. 16, 2020) [/quote]
Nurses to go on strike next week (KVF.fo, Oct. 15, 2020)

 

[Childlike Empress]

Friday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 16, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 585 (5,918) 793* 30 *according to SVT.se. No new Swedish numbers Saturday to Monday.
Denmark: 117 (677) 418 16

Uuuuhm, in new cases per million those are 77 (793/10.3) for Sweden and 72 (418/5.8) for Denmark. The difference doesn't seem to justify hating on your neighbours. Let alone shutting down society and forcing everybody to wear a face diaper or other such inanities.

 

[dann]

Dunno if Victoria is much to boast about.
While it’s mortality rate per capita of 122 / million is certainly less than Sweden’s 580 (475% worse than Victoria),
it is 2628% worse than the rest of Australia’s states combined (4.64) and accounts for 90% of the deaths in Australia.

That is still quite an accomplishment from a European perspective. Victoria has approximately the same population density as Sweden.

Demonstrated by all other states except for Victoria. Total deaths went from 100 or so in July to over 900 now.

Deaths. Victoria’s per capita death rate is over 26 x that of all other states combined. Nothing to brag about. That second wave that dwarfs the country’s initial outbreak is mostly due to a government cock-up of their mandated and run hotel quarantine.

COVID response in Australia is like the Spice Girls.
Victoria ruined it for everyone.

Australia's per capita death rate is only slightly higher than Iceland's where the second wave was started by two French tourists disobeying quarantine rules. What exactly set it off in Australia?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Come on dann, calm down and stop "hiliting". In Germany we have 51 new cases per million (4254/83) and even that - you uttered that the German approach is the role model - is in the same range as your Scandinavian numbers. Cannot justify the totalitarian measures. Sweden, not going that road, has been right as it is in the same "raw numbers" position as Denmark right now, but hasn't destroyed their middle class.

 

[lionking]

Demonstrated by all other states except for Victoria. Total deaths went from 100 or so in July to over 900 now.

Deaths. Victoria’s per capital death rate is over 26 x that of all other states combined. Nothing to brag about. That second wave that dwarfs the country’s initial outbreak is mostly due to a government cock-up of their mandated and run hotel quarantine.

COVID response in Australia is like the Spice Girls.
Victoria ruined it for everyone.

Don’t speak too soon. NSW has eased hospitality restrictions which were mainly ignored anyway. Demographics are roughly the same, so infections will rise, maybe not to the level of Victoria, where the wave came in winter, but rise they will.

Anyway, that is pretty much irrelevant. Show me other nations or regions which have seen a large and growing second wave and brought it down to close to zero in less than 3 months. Yes mistakes were made with quarantine and a small number of super spreaders kicked things off. Since then Andrews has shown outstanding leadership.

This reminds me of, when someone talks about heroic acts of soldiers in war, someone else far removed from the action says “big deal, the wars were illegal/shouldn’t have happened/are evil” Pointless, irrelevant and pretty insulting.

 

[dann]

Uuuuhm, in new cases per million those are 77 (793/10.3) for Sweden and 72 (418/5.8) for Denmark. The difference doesn't seem to justify hating on your neighbours. Let alone shutting down society and forcing everybody to wear a face diaper or other such inanities.

The face-mask policy in Sweden is actually interesting:

Sweden actually recommends against masks everywhere except in places where health care workers are treating COVID-19 patients (some regions expand that to health care workers treating suspected patients as well).
(...)
All of this creates a situation which leaves teachers, bus drivers, medical workers and care home staff more exposed, without face masks at a time when the rest of the world is clearly endorsing widespread mask wearing.
On Aug. 13, Tegnell said that to recommend masks to the public “quite a lot of resources are required. There is quite a lot of money that would be spent if you are going to have masks.”
(...)
Swedavia, the owner of the country’s largest airport, Stockholm Arlanda, told employees during the spring and early summer they could not wear masks or gloves to work. One employee told Upsala Nya Tidning newspaper on Aug. 24 “Many of us were sick during the beginning of the pandemic and two colleagues have died due to the virus. I would estimate that 60%-80% of the staff at the security checks have had the infection.”
“Our union representatives fought for us to have masks at work,” the employee said, “but the airport’s response was that we were an authority that would not spread fear, but we would show that the virus was not so dangerous.” Swedavia’s reply was that they had introduced the infection control measures recommended by the authorities. On July 1, the company changed its policy, recommending masks for everyone who comes to Arlanda—that, according to a Swedavia spokesperson, was not as a result of “an infection control measure advocated by Swedish authorities,” but rather, due to a joint European Union Aviation Safety Agency and ECDC recommendation for all of Europe.
The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. It Shouldn’t Be a Model for the Rest of the World (Time, Oct. 14, 2020)

So freedom-loving, lax Sweden forbids its workers to use face masks because it will rather spread the virus than allow people to use PPE to avoid it.
Not only does Sweden advise against the use of face masks in Sweden, apparently because the country can't afford them, but Anders Tegnell has also been busy lobbying against other countries recommending them:

In an email on April 5, Tegnell wrote to Mike Catchpole, the chief scientist at the European Center for Disease Control and Prevention (ECDC): “We are quite worried about the statement ECDC has been preparing about masks.” Tegnell attached a document in which he expresses concern that ECDC recommending facemasks would “imply that the spread is airborne which would seriously harm further communication and trust among the population and health care workers” and concludes “we would like to warn against the publication of this advice.”

The virus is airborne and the ECDC did recommend face masks on April 8. (So kudos for not listening to Anders Tegnell.) It took WHO two months more to get to that point, and I wonder if Tegnell and Giesecke's lobbying had anything to do with the delay.
In Sweden, plenty of hand washing is still considered to be the best way to prevent the transmission of an airborne virus. Hand washing is much cheaper than face masks, I guess.

 

[dann]

A rational pandemic response is very popular: It’s early, but we’re calling it: Jacinda Ardern will lead the next government (Spinoff.co.nz, Oct. 17, 2020)

Whereas, treating the virus as a "psychosis" doesn't seem to be trending: Belarus protests: Police authorised to use lethal weapons (BBC, Oct. 13, 2020)