Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

Status
Not open for further replies.
Then you could sue clothes manufacturing firms for misrepresented sizes on the products.


Size 11, hah! I fit a 7 and that insult is going to make me rich!
 
sphenisc said:
That's fine if it means you'll accept I'm not staring at your boobs, I'm just noticing how thin you are.
Click to expand...


Hm, that's another nuance the trans will need to internalize (need to have internalized?) to make the transition complete and seamless: being offended when stared at or admired. Those times a girl has looked at me, admiringly let's say, I've never felt other than flattered, pleased. Some chick wants to objectivize me, stare at my junk instead of my face? Be my guest. And it isn't just me: this is entirely anecdotal, but I don't think any of my male friends, whom I know well enough to be able to gauge their likely reaction, would be other than pleased if some chick were checking out their junk. Not so with women and guys not being able to take their eyes away from their assets. So yeah, that's the final turing test for whether transwomen are truly women.



[/joke]

[/possibly-probably-lame-but-definitely-truly-not-intended-as-at-all-transphobic-or-misogynistic-joke]
 
Chanakya said:
Hm, that's another nuance the trans will need to internalize (need to have internalized?) to make the transition complete and seamless: being offended when stared at or admired. Those times a girl has looked at me, admiringly let's say, I've never felt other than flattered, pleased. Some chick wants to objectivize me, stare at my junk instead of my face? Be my guest. And it isn't just me: this is entirely anecdotal, but I don't think any of my male friends, whom I know well enough to be able to gauge their likely reaction, would be other than pleased if some chick were checking out their junk. Not so with women and guys not being able to take their eyes away from their assets. So yeah, that's the final turing test for whether transwomen are truly women.



[/joke]

[/possibly-probably-lame-but-definitely-truly-not-intended-as-at-all-transphobic-or-misogynistic-joke]
Click to expand...

At first I thought you had made a mistake, and left out the joke. Did you intend the paragraph above as a joke?

That one, specific, attribute, wouldn't be the actual test, but rather one of many, because the behaviors you have described are not universal, but they are real and they are normal. One of the things that has been brought up repeatedly is that among declared transwomen you have a lot of people who act a lot like stereotypical men.

Stereotypically male behavior is a gender trait, is it not?

I'll let everyone connect the dots any way they see fit.
 
Meadmaker said:
At first I thought you had made a mistake, and left out the joke. Did you intend the paragraph above as a joke?
That one, specific, attribute, wouldn't be the actual test, but rather one of many, because the behaviors you have described are not universal, but they are real and they are normal. One of the things that has been brought up repeatedly is that among declared transwomen you have a lot of people who act a lot like stereotypical men.

Stereotypically male behavior is a gender trait, is it not?

I'll let everyone connect the dots any way they see fit.
Click to expand...





Touche, if meant as homorous comeback. And double ouch, if asked in earnest :)


But to answer your serious question seriously: That observation of mine is true enough, as far as it goes. But it probably doesn't go very far, given that it is random and entirely anecdotal. Knowing as little as I do about the trans condition, I wouldn't present that observation other than as a joke.

But it's curious, when you think about it. Assuming that observation of mine has wider application than just to me and my friends (or, more precisely, than to me and to my impression about my friends), why is it that men don't mind being leered at by girls, while girls do mind being objectified by men? Never thought about this before, but now that I have, I suppose it has to do with power structures among genders that we take for granted. Men aren't ever -- or only very very rarely, perhaps only hypothetically, are -- actually threatened or harmed by amorous women forcing themselves in some way or form, while women definitely are, sometimes if not often, subtly if not overtly, even in this day and age.

That's what's wrong with this forum. You crack a joke, and people, instead of laughing at your joke, or else laughing at your attempt at a joke, instead force you to think closely about what you've said. And before you know it you're thinking all sorts of deep serious things about all sorts of deep serious issues. ...Or perhaps that's what's great about this forum?
 
Chanakya said:
But it's curious, when you think about it. Assuming that observation of mine has wider application than just to me and my friends (or, more precisely, than to me and to my impression about my friends), why is it that men don't mind being leered at by girls, while girls do mind being objectified by men? Never thought about this before, but now that I have, I suppose it has to do with power structures among genders that we take for granted. Men aren't ever -- or only very very rarely, perhaps only hypothetically, are -- actually threatened or harmed by amorous women forcing themselves in some way or form, while women definitely are, sometimes if not often, subtly if not overtly, even in this day and age.
Click to expand...

I think there are a few factors, with that being the most significant. Frequency is also an issue, but I won't go too deep into the analysis of something that was meant to be a joke.

And it isn't just you and your friends. It's every male on the planet. Well, obviously not "every" male. There has to be some sort of diversity in the world. But, yeah, typical guys don't mind being thought of as sex objects, to be used and discarded to satisfy momentary whims of ravenously lusty females. I'm kind of ok with that. At my age, it just isn't going to happen, though.

Vive la difference.
 
Chanakya said:
But it's curious, when you think about it. Assuming that observation of mine has wider application than just to me and my friends (or, more precisely, than to me and to my impression about my friends), why is it that men don't mind being leered at by girls, while girls do mind being objectified by men? Never thought about this before, but now that I have, I suppose it has to do with power structures among genders that we take for granted. Men aren't ever -- or only very very rarely, perhaps only hypothetically, are -- actually threatened or harmed by amorous women forcing themselves in some way or form, while women definitely are, sometimes if not often, subtly if not overtly, even in this day and age.
Click to expand...

I think it may be a power thing that harkens back to a time when a man (or at least a powerful man) who saw something he liked felt he could take it. We like to say those days are long gone, but that’s pretty much how Trump described himself in his “pussy grabber” comments.

Then there are fairy tales like Cinderella where the stepmother wants to dress her daughters to attract the “right” man and its Cinderella’s beauty that attracts the prince, not her skill at mathematics.

That could be a whole other topic, so I’ll bring it back.

I don’t actually know how Tran women as a group feel about being ogled. I’m sure some like it and some don’t, depending on the situation and the ogled, just like women. But they also have a different scrutiny to face. “Is this dude looking at me because I’m attractive, or is he examining me because I’m trans?”
 
If we're into drama/fiction, Turandot is an actual psychopath, and Calaf knows this, and he still jeopardises and in fact sacrifices one of the few people who actually care about him to win her because of her "beauty", and everybody thinks this is a happy ending?

Beauty is unlikely to last but psychopathy is probably permanent.
 
Chanakya said:
So yeah, that's the final turing test for whether transwomen are truly women.

[/joke]

[/possibly-probably-lame-but-definitely-truly-not-intended-as-at-all-transphobic-or-misogynistic-joke]
Click to expand...

:D Lame, but I still giggled. I happen to like lame jokes. And puns. I love a good pun. I especially love a bad pun.
 
Meadmaker said:
I think there are a few factors, with that being the most significant. Frequency is also an issue, but I won't go too deep into the analysis of something that was meant to be a joke.
Click to expand...

This topic came up with my spouse some time back. We'd been out in public (pre-COVID) and a woman had paid him a compliment about his shirt. He blushed and thanked her, then kind of teared up a little, which I found odd. We talked about it on the way home, and he had a good point: men almost never get complimented on their appearance or their fashion by women.

My take on it is that:
  • Men don't compliment other men, because it might be taken as interest... and most men are heterosexual
  • Women don't compliment men, because it might be taken as interest... and we already deal with a lot of "insignificant imagined signals being taken as a come-on" and just don't want more of them
  • Men compliment women, and even if it's innocent and well-meaning, we're almost always going to assume it's flirting and most of the time we don't want to respond positively because... well, see above
  • Women compliment women, and that's generally viewed as safe and an act of bonding between women

So, basically, guys get screwed over in three directions when it comes to compliments about their appearance or attire.

:D I've committed to trying to make sure my spouse gets compliments fairly regularly... and if I ever go out in public again I'll be sure to randomly compliment a man here and there. Guys need support too.
 
TomB said:
I don’t actually know how Tran women as a group feel about being ogled. I’m sure some like it and some don’t, depending on the situation and the ogled, just like women. But they also have a different scrutiny to face. “Is this dude looking at me because I’m attractive, or is he examining me because I’m trans?”
Click to expand...
There is even a term for the latter phenomenon.
 
Emily's Cat said:
This topic came up with my spouse some time back. We'd been out in public (pre-COVID) and a woman had paid him a compliment about his shirt. He blushed and thanked her, then kind of teared up a little, which I found odd. We talked about it on the way home, and he had a good point: men almost never get complimented on their appearance or their fashion by women.

My take on it is that:
  • Men don't compliment other men, because it might be taken as interest... and most men are heterosexual
  • Women don't compliment men, because it might be taken as interest... and we already deal with a lot of "insignificant imagined signals being taken as a come-on" and just don't want more of them
  • Men compliment women, and even if it's innocent and well-meaning, we're almost always going to assume it's flirting and most of the time we don't want to respond positively because... well, see above
  • Women compliment women, and that's generally viewed as safe and an act of bonding between women

So, basically, guys get screwed over in three directions when it comes to compliments about their appearance or attire.

:D I've committed to trying to make sure my spouse gets compliments fairly regularly... and if I ever go out in public again I'll be sure to randomly compliment a man here and there. Guys need support too.
Click to expand...
How does that work in reverse, I wonder.
In particular, I have been a bit puzzled by the demonization of telling a woman to smile.

Other things in popular discussion are more obviously ignorant. But I can't imagine being upset if told to smile (not commanded to smile, just a "smile, It's Friday" kind of thing)
 
Distracted1 said:
How does that work in reverse, I wonder.
In particular, I have been a bit puzzled by the demonization of telling a woman to smile.

Other things in popular discussion are more obviously ignorant. But I can't imagine being upset if told to smile (not commanded to smile, just a "smile, It's Friday" kind of thing)
Click to expand...

There are a few topics floating around here, that end up being a bit intertwined. The "smile" thing is a very nuanced thing, loaded with underlying baggage and history. Consider it akin to calling a black man "boy". Even if it's intended nicely, there's still an underlying impact that is beyond the intent of the speaker.

"Smile" falls into the category of things men say that reinforce the idea that the main purpose for women should be to provide beauty for the male gaze. Yes, that's a mouthful... but it's also a deeply ingrained aspect of social interactions between males and females. There's a whole lot to unpack in that... and it probably deserves a thread of its own.

With respect to "smile" by itself, there are a few things going on. First, and probably the most "surface of mind" element of it is that females are conditioned from childhood to put great effort into appearing happy, complacent, and friendly regardless of how we actually feel. We're expected to smile and put on a happy face even if we're deeply unhappy. There's a very disparate social reaction from adults toward children who express unhappiness or anger, based on the sex of the child. It's not universal, it's not every single time or every single child or adult, but it's prevalent and frequent enough to produce an observable pattern of behavior. Generally speaking, an unhappy male child will be met with adult concern and an attempt to either identify the source of that unhappiness, or to appease or mitigate that unhappiness. An unhappy female child, however, will often be met with anger from adults, with the implied sentiment that the female child's unhappiness is unjustified and unacceptable. This carries through into adulthood - because both male and female children have this differential response mechanism conditioned into their behavior form a very young age.

When a man tells a woman to smile, all of that childhood conditioning is embedded in it. On one hand, it tends to dismiss the feelings of the female in question as being less important than the aesthetic appeal of her smile for men to observe. It casts her legitimate emotional state as being invalid in the face of male wants. Additionally, males often respond with anger when a female doesn't comply with their request for a smile. Failure to smile is frequently followed by being called a bitch of other uncomplimentary comments.
 
I just don't compliment anyone anymore unless I know them really well. But I still catch myself checking women out. I don't know if I'm ashamed of that behavior but I do stop it when I catch it. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable and it's not like I'm going to force myself on anyone. I don't know, I think it's sad that we can't just be genuine and try to lift people's spirits a little without looking like a creep.
 
xjx388 said:
I just don't compliment anyone anymore unless I know them really well. But I still catch myself checking women out. I don't know if I'm ashamed of that behavior but I do stop it when I catch it. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable and it's not like I'm going to force myself on anyone. I don't know, I think it's sad that we can't just be genuine and try to lift people's spirits a little without looking like a creep.
Click to expand...

Just try not to be a creep about it. And if you get caught, smile and look a bit abashed. Own the fact that you're a normal human male, and appreciating female attractiveness is natural. Just don't be a lecherous jerk.

Also, women check men out too. We're just a bit more subtle about it.

I try to balance the books on this one, by unabashedly checking out men (when I'm not in some isolated situation at least), and by periodically objectifying the holy hell out of celebrities. Like Jason Momoa. He's not smart, he's only an okay actor... but Conan is one of my favorite movies. He barely talks at all, but you sure get to see a lot of his body! :p
 
Distracted1 said:
How does that work in reverse, I wonder.
In particular, I have been a bit puzzled by the demonization of telling a woman to smile.

Other things in popular discussion are more obviously ignorant. But I can't imagine being upset if told to smile (not commanded to smile, just a "smile, It's Friday" kind of thing)
Click to expand...

I don't have to be female to absolutely hate that, with a passion.

A suggestion that I smile might be met with words that the autocensor will recognize.

Maybe it's because there have been times in my life when something was going very, very, badly.....like death and dying badly, or relationship ending badly, or other life changing and not in a good way badly, and someone has said, "Hey, cheer up! Smile!" Not a "Hey, you don't look so good. Is something wrong?", but a "I don't give a rat's ass how you feel. Your bad mood isn't working well for me!" sort of thing.

For women, on top of all that there's the, "The most important thing in your life should be to look attractive to me. You should smile."

If you don't know me, do not tell me to smile. if you do know me, and see that I'm acting unusually glum/angry/or otherwise not in positive fashion, either avoid me or find out if you can help. "Smile!" to me means, "Whatever is happening in your life right now, how could it be more important than the way you are dealing with me?"


And, for people who spend a lot of time not smiling, it's a way of saying, "There's something wrong with you that you don't smile very much." If you know them very, very, well, so much so that you know how to give heartfelt advice without pushing their buttons, and you are sure you have something that can make their life better, then go for it. Otherwise, I'm not a fan.
 
Saying "smile" to anybody is rude, regardless of gender. Seriously, **** off, you have no idea what is going on with that person that may be causing them to scowl. It's so annoying.

It got turned into a gender thing at some point, probably because men are slightly more inclined to say it to "cute" females, but old ladies do it all the time too. And bubbly college girls. People say it to crabby-looking children. ARGHGHGH, I just think you would have to be an alien to say that to a stranger. It's weird as hell, man.

Compliments are different, and as long as it isn't "nice tits," it's fine with me. Just don't expect me to strike up a conversation after I say thank you. Extroverted people are the worst with that kind of stuff.

I wish it hadn't been turned into a chicks vs. dudes issue (the smile thing), honestly, because I think of it more as a human issue. If there's any "vs." involved, it's more likely to be introvert vs. extrovert.


EDIT: Mead said it better.
 
Last edited:
Emily's Cat said:
  • Men don't compliment other men, because it might be taken as interest... and most men are heterosexual
Click to expand...

That's part of it. Another aspect, if you're talking about appearance, is that we really just don't care.

Oh, you like my shirt? What the hell's wrong with you? Unless it has a picture of something cool on it.


That isn't a universal thing by any means. There are moments when a compliment from another man works, but I think it's almost more important as a way of noting that there is something special happening, not whether the person actually looks good. i.e. if you see me in a suit, you can probably figure I'm going to a job interview, so a "Hey, what are you all dressed up for?" (If it happens to be a funeral, then, oops) In a less formal situation in might be, "Them clothes are looking fancy. You meeting a lady tonight?"

As for compliments from women toward men? They're likely to be taken as flirtation, unless the man is beyond flirting years, and knows it. Lots of men are beyond flirting years, but don't know it, so that's a bit risky. I wouldn't say never do it, because we do indeed like it in most cases, but it can be a risky strategy.
 
You should never tell another person to smile without subsequently leaning in close and whispering "It'll make them worry about what you've got planned...".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom