Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Real-world consequences, or invented hypothetical consequences? Because these are not the same things at all.
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I said the real-world consequences, didn't I?
Although I addressed the question to Bob, feel free to answer it if you want.
Would you send a serial rapist to a prison for women if he claims that he's a woman now?
 
d4m10n said:
If either of those conditions may result in something close to the typical male body type, then yes. I'm much more concerned with fairness than with separating females from males.



Anything approaching the average for males is much too much. Not sure if we've any way to scientifically quantify this phenomenon, however. Need to read up.
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The IAAF released its new rules on October 14 2019.

Under the new regulations a Transgender female athlete is no longer required to be recognised by law in her new gender but should provide a signed declaration that her gender identity is female.
She must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Expert Panel that the concentration of testosterone in her serum has been less than 5nmol/L continuously for a period of at least 12 months prior to being declared eligible, and must keep her serum testosterone concentration below that level to maintain her eligibility to compete in the female category.


The new World Athletics policy insists that its stipulations for transgender athletes are actually generous. “The decision limit also takes into consideration that, for clinical purposes, the Endocrine Society Clinical Practice Guideline for Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons recommends that transgender females should have serum testosterone levels of less than 50 ng/dL (i.e. approximately 1.7 nmol/L).”

But while DSD and transgender athletes face different issues, Semenya and other DSD athletes have set a precedent by withdrawing from competition rather than bring their levels down to the 5 nmol/L standard. In CAS proceedings, Semenya said she experienced regular fevers, night sweats, significant weight gain and constant abdominal pain while taking medication to meet the previous standard of 10 nmol/L.

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...me-standard-that-has-kept-out-caster-semenya/

(Sounds like she was having symptoms similar to PMT or menopause.)

I've heard recommendations from runners to have trans/intersex running events.

As a runner, I've participated in all-female runs a couple of times.

Women runners are well aware of the physical advantages biological males have, as seen in the stats/results of every race.

Male hearts and lungs are 10-15% larger, meaning higher VO2 Max (oxygen in blood efficiency) and muscles are stronger, all contributing to 10-15% faster average speed.
 
(Sounds like she was having symptoms similar to PMT or menopause.)
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I can't speculate on what the cause of Semenya's distressing symptoms is, but it doesn't have anything to do with PMT or the menopause. These are things that only affect female bodies, and Semenya's body is biologically male. She has testes, not ovaries, and she doesn't have a uterus. Her body has never produced more than trace (male) amounts of either oestrogen or progesterone.

I've heard recommendations from runners to have trans/intersex running events.
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Trans, maybe. It would be an excellent way to get women's sports back to women again. The main problem there is that transwomen athletes will complain that there aren't enough of them to make it really competitive, and that may be a fair point, but also, and this is more fundamental, most of the transwomen athletes are so invested in the "validation" of competing as and being treated as a woman that they'll fight tooth and nail against the idea. For these men, nothing female must be off-limits because their compulsion is for there to be no distinction between them and women.

Intersex sports is a non-starter. There are a couple of dozen intersex conditions and they're all different. You can't take women with Turner's syndrome, Swyer's syndrome, CAIS, MRKH and whatever all else, and men with Klinefelter's syndrome and hypospadias and PAIS and whatever all else and lump them into one category. It's nuts. And even then what are you going to do about HAC and PCOS which are virilising conditions of females but are not intersex?

It would turn into something like the Paralympics, where there are a multitude of classes in each sport to accommodate different levels of disability, and you're right back to there not being enough people to make it competitive. And what would be the objective of this anyway? Intersex people are not trans. They pose a particular problem for sport because they may require particular attention to the definition of male and female, and that's about it.
 
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Rolfe said:
I can't speculate on what the cause of Semenya's distressing symptoms is, but it doesn't have anything to do with PMT or the menopause. These are things that only affect female bodies, and Semenya's body is biologically male. She has testes, not ovaries, and she doesn't have a uterus. Her body has never produced more than trace (male) amounts of either oestrogen or progesterone.
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Do you have a source that confirms these?
 
Puppycow said:
I said the real-world consequences, didn't I?
Although I addressed the question to Bob, feel free to answer it if you want.
Would you send a serial rapist to a prison for women if he claims that he's a woman now?
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I would send a serial rapist transwoman to a woman's prison, yes. Just as I would send a serial homosexual male rapist to a men's prison.

If the person sent to prison is causing problems or posing a threat to other inmates then the prison has to deal with that just as they would with any other prisoner.

I'm not seeing how this example is the massive gotcha people seem to think it is.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I would send a serial rapist transwoman to a woman's prison, yes. Just as I would send a serial homosexual male rapist to a men's prison.

If the person sent to prison is causing problems or posing a threat to other inmates then the prison has to deal with that just as they would with any other prisoner.

I'm not seeing how this example is the massive gotcha people seem to think it is.
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And all one needs to do to be a transwoman is to say that?
 
Puppycow said:
And all one needs to do to be a transwoman is to say that?
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No, and this has never been the case. But if someone legally changes their gender then the law should recognise them as that gender. That's what legally changing your gender means, surely?

Not, legally change your gender except when some people have an issue with it for whatever spurious reasons they happen to have.

Someone who hasn't legally changed their gender but walked into court and proclaimed 'I AM A WOMAN!' after being found guilty and did nothing else should/would not be sent to a woman's prison.
 
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She's recognised legally as female because a mistake was made when she was born. Nobody has any right to force her to consider herself as male. (Although it's possible taking that decision for herself might have led to a better outcome if past examples are anything to go by). However she is biologically male. Her genetic complement is 46XY. She has testes, not ovaries. She has functional androgen receptors. She went through male puberty.

It's all very messy and very unfortunate for her.
 
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Archie Gemmill Goal said:
No, and this has never been the case. But if someone legally changes their gender then the law should recognise them as that gender. That's what legally changing your gender means, surely?

Not, legally change your gender except when some people have an issue with it for whatever spurious reasons they happen to have.

Someone who hasn't legally changed their gender but walked into court and proclaimed 'I AM A WOMAN!' after being found guilty and did nothing else should/would not be sent to a woman's prison.
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OK, so that's a different position than Bob's position at least.

So, the instant a person is arrested, they lose the right to change genders?

Or do they lose that right upon conviction?
 
Rolfe said:
She's recognised legally as female because a mistake was made when she was born. Nobody has any right to force her to consider herself as male. (Although it's possible taking that decision for herself might have led to a better outcome if past examples are anything to go by). However she is biologically male. Her genetic complement is 46XY. She has testes, not ovaries. She has functional androgen receptors. She went through male puberty.

It's all very messy and very unfortunate for her.
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Prove the testes.
 
Puppycow said:
Medical privacy prevents that.
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It's now official that she's 46XY. The report of her having testes was a leak from some years back, but the confirmation of the Y chromosome in the context of the rest of what is known essentially confirms that as being correct.
 
Rolfe said:
It's now official that she's 46XY. The report of her having testes was a leak from some years back, but the confirmation of the Y chromosome in the context of the rest of what is known essentially confirms that as being correct.
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Yeah, it's proven to my satisfaction, since I can also read between the lines. I don't know what standard of proof Bob would accept, but I don't think it's necessary for either of us to "prove" it to the Bobs of the world. The evidence is there for those with eyes to see it.
 
Without having thought about it too carefully I assumed originally that she was 46XX with HAC. They kept insisting she was a woman, and saying coyly that she had "some intersex traits", which seemed to figure because HAC isn't strictly speaking an intersex condition, it's a virilisation syndrome that affects females.

I hadn't taken on board the leak from a few years back that she has testicles. Of course CAIS women have poorly developed internal testes so it's not impossible to be a woman and have testes, but Caster Semenya is quite patently obviously not CAIS. Put "high testosterone", "internal testes" and obvious virilisation together and you have an actual biological male. When it was confirmed by the CAS that she is 46XY a lot of people who had been paying more attention than I had simply said, thought so.

Erik Schinneger has repeatedly emphasised how tough things were for him, but after the initial surgery (which seems to have been very much not a walk in the park) his main problem seems to have been blatant prejudice and finger-pointing in his home village which he refused to leave, and (unfounded) concern that he wasn't a "real man". Of course he got the choice, because the rules in the late 1960s meant that he couldn't go on competing once the truth was discovered. If he'd been a medal-winning factory for Austria with his times 5 seconds ahead of the actual girls he was racing against, would they have allowed him the choice? Or would everyone have assured him he was a "real woman" and any suggestion to the contrary was hate speech and get out there and win for us Erika? I suspect so.
 
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Puppycow said:
Yeah, it's proven to my satisfaction, since I can also read between the lines. I don't know what standard of proof Bob would accept, but I don't think it's necessary for either of us to "prove" it to the Bobs of the world. The evidence is there for those with eyes to see it.
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In science you don't have to read between the lines. A report from someone who examined the runner would be sufficient.
 
Orphia Nay said:
The IAAF released its new rules on October 14 2019.

Under the new regulations a Transgender female athlete is no longer required to be recognised by law in her new gender but should provide a signed declaration that her gender identity is female.
She must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Expert Panel that the concentration of testosterone in her serum has been less than 5nmol/L continuously for a period of at least 12 months prior to being declared eligible, and must keep her serum testosterone concentration below that level to maintain her eligibility to compete in the female category.


The new World Athletics policy insists that its stipulations for transgender athletes are actually generous. “The decision limit also takes into consideration that, for clinical purposes, the Endocrine Society Clinical Practice Guideline for Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons recommends that transgender females should have serum testosterone levels of less than 50 ng/dL (i.e. approximately 1.7 nmol/L).”

But while DSD and transgender athletes face different issues, Semenya and other DSD athletes have set a precedent by withdrawing from competition rather than bring their levels down to the 5 nmol/L standard. In CAS proceedings, Semenya said she experienced regular fevers, night sweats, significant weight gain and constant abdominal pain while taking medication to meet the previous standard of 10 nmol/L.

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...me-standard-that-has-kept-out-caster-semenya/

(Sounds like she was having symptoms similar to PMT or menopause.)

I've heard recommendations from runners to have trans/intersex running events.

As a runner, I've participated in all-female runs a couple of times.

Women runners are well aware of the physical advantages biological males have, as seen in the stats/results of every race.

Male hearts and lungs are 10-15% larger, meaning higher VO2 Max (oxygen in blood efficiency) and muscles are stronger, all contributing to 10-15% faster average speed.
Click to expand...
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Enter the genderqueer, genderflux, agender, etc... athletes with a solution: Get rid of binary classifications to be inclusive to all. "Nobody's really tried it any other way"

Jaimi doesn’t believe sport is about winning, certainly no more than it is about inclusion. And they hope others will come to that conclusion as well.

“It’s just a matter of being able to experience your body,” Jaimi said, “and everybody should glorify that because it’s fun.”

“Whether or not you get pushed off the podium, that doesn’t matter if you know your sense of accomplishment,” they added. “And the numbers, especially when it comes to athletics, they don’t lie.”

There have been steps to make teams more accepting of transgender athletes, and while Jaimi feels safe in their identity at Stanford, they said there will never be full acceptance so long as sports remain gendered as they are today.
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