Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Emily's Cat said:
I would like to take you view- and for quite sometime I did. I viewed it as being "nutso internettters" (along with a host of other anonymized internet behaviors that I find abhorrent).

But it has also spilled over into RL. For example, the transgender people who attacked the women at Speakers Corner in England a couple of years ago, for wanting to get together and discuss with transgender people the impact of the proposed changes to the GRA. Or like the activists who have shut down rape shelters that are designated female-only, and sent threats to the people who run and manage those facilities. Or the activists who physically barred entry and intimidated customers at a newly-opened feminist bookshop.

I will say that this phenomenon of social media extremism spilling over into real life and becoming normalized isn't limited to this subject. It's evident with respect to many other topics as well.
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One doesn't evaluate the validity of a position based upon the actions of a few extremists.

If extremists break the law, they break the law, and they deserve to get punished.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Makes me glad that lawyers aren't doctors.
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Lawyers base their views on matters medical upon the views of doctors*.

Or didn't you know that? Did you think perhaps that lawyers just draw their own conclusions on medical stuff based on their own evidence?


* And guess what the view of doctors is, therefore..... :D
 
Rolfe said:
The other interesting thing about CAIS women is that they have zero bioavailable testosterone, compared to the normal female concentration of around 0.5 to 2 nmol/l. If testosterone was the be-all and end-all of athletic performance you'd imagine they'd be nowhere in the athletics stakes. Instead they are massively over-represented in elite women's athletics. Go figure.
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Do you mind posting evidence they are massively over represented in elite women's athletics?
 
Lithrael said:
Ah it’s good to see I’m chopped liver or something. ;)

It seems ironic to me when gender critical women complain women are being ignored and talked over while ignoring and talking over the women who disagree with them, and occasionally dismissing them as some kind of traitors or Palestinian sympathizer style ‘useful idiots’ who are just looking for virtue signaling points with the trans lobby.
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I know. :thumbsup:

It's always instructive (and somewhat amusing) to observe self-righteous indignation "hoist with (its) own petard" :D
 
To be fair, part of why my opinion is where it is is because locally where I live I have not seen one single particle of trans people being encouraged too much and treated too inclusively, but I have heard buckets full of local people making accusations that trans people are being encouraged too much and treated too inclusively. So, different experiences and all that.

The closest I’ve come to anything that even smells like overreach was an email I got asking if I wanted to join a petition for trans girls to be allowed to compete in National Collegiate Athletic Association championships.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
You didn't even bother to pretend to read with an earnest attempt at understanding, did you? I think I'm done with this. I have no need to be condescended to by a bad-faith actor.
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If you say "bad faith actor" (is that a personalised insult, by the way? I'm not sure...) enough times, it might make it become true. I doubt it, though.

(May I assume you have no actual response of substance to my post then?)
 
Boudicca90...

I think we were finding some common ground a couple of days ago. Can we circle back to that?

Emily's Cat said:
This is the right that I, and other females, are asking to retain.
This is the right that transgender activist organizations are asking that we relinquish.
This is the right that self-declaration alone, without a medical diagnosis and with no transition activity required, would remove from females - and from you.

This is why I am opposed to self-declaration of gender identity granting full legal protections - it would force you as well as me to be obligated to accept that person into our private spaces.
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Emily's Cat said:
I respect you when you're not calling me names and dismissing my concerns ;)

Let's circle back to the Seani scenario. Seani self-declares herself to be a woman. Seani presents, as far as I can tell, as a man. Seani has also been clear that she has no intention of undergoing HRT or GRS.

You and I both want a male-free space. You want to be considered female with respect to that space, not just be considered a woman. I get that.

Seani also wants to be considered female with respect to that space.

How do you and I come to some kind of agreement of terminology that allows both of us to recognize that Seani presents as a man, and has the physical attributes of a man... while also denying Seani entrance to our private spaces? What is the appropriate terminology to use here?

If you were asked to explain why Seani (who self-declares to be a woman) should not be allowed into our private spaces... what would you say?
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I'm particularly interested in your view on the bolded question.
 
Lithrael said:
To be fair, part of why my opinion is where it is is because locally where I live I have not seen one single particle of trans people being encouraged too much and treated too inclusively, but I have heard buckets full of local people making accusations that trans people are being encouraged too much and treated too inclusively. So, different experiences and all that.
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That's not unusual among bigots and reactionaries, when it comes to a consideration of those who are "different" from them and their worldview.

I still, for example, hear people talk about gay people or black people getting "too much" consideration and help (eg with things like Black History Month or grants for gay theatre projects - "Why can't that money be for ALL plays, not just gay plays?!!")

I wonder what the position of radical feminists tends to be wrt transgender considerations......?

:rolleyes:
 
Not sure if it helps or makes things more annoying for people,

But we are just about to have an election here.

There was a leaders debate a few days ago between the leader of the opposition and Jacinda "oh she is so great even though she has achieved **** all of what she promised" Ardern.

They were both asked the toilet question with trans and both promised to have at least one gender neutral one in every secondary school.
 
cullennz said:
Not sure if it helps or makes things more annoying for people,

But we are just about to have an election here.

There was a leaders debate a few days ago between the leader of the opposition and Jacinda "oh she is so great even though she has achieved **** all of what she promised" Ardern.

They were both asked the toilet question with trans and both promised to have at least one gender neutral one in every secondary school.
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That's encouraging and progressive (though it will still, of course, be met with howls of protests from certain sections of society...).

But in pretty much every secondary school, there will be quite a few "boys" and "girls" toilets in any case, so the logistics (and building work) involved in rebadging one of those toilets as a gender-neutral one will be minimal.

It's in those spaces where there is only one of each toilet currently - or one of each changing room - that the problems quickly escalate. In most such spaces, it's functionally impossible to accommodate transgender people in a way which doesn't involve transgender and cisgender people having to share facilities. And in these spaces, we are going to need to decide (soon) which of the segregated facilities trans women/girls and trans men/boys should use.
 
cullennz said:
It brings a bit of a tear to my eye but this brings up special memories for me.

Forgive me if get emotional.

It reminds of my dad's last words to me before he kicked the bucket.

He looked at me earnestly and said.

"Son. ... Do you want to see how far I can kick this bucket some one has left on the ground there?

(I know. Immature joke, but makes me laugh)
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That's a lovely story and memory - and I'm sure it illustrates what your dad was like and what he was like with you.

I kind of wish I'd had something similar happen when my own dad died....
 
LondonJohn said:
That's encouraging and progressive (though it will still, of course, be met with howls of protests from certain sections of society...).



But in pretty much every secondary school, there will be quite a few "boys" and "girls" toilets in any case, so the logistics (and building work) involved in rebadging one of those toilets as a gender-neutral one will be minimal.



It's in those spaces where there is only one of each toilet currently - or one of each changing room - that the problems quickly escalate. In most such spaces, it's functionally impossible to accommodate transgender people in a way which doesn't involve transgender and cisgender people having to share facilities. And in these spaces, we are going to need to decide (soon) which of the segregated facilities trans women/girls and trans men/boys should use.
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Agree totally.

Which is what I rather badly worded helps or hinders.

[emoji5]

It will just open another can of worms I think.
 
Thing is even having a gender neutral toilet in every school it just brings up other issues.

Why can't I use the girls?

Why do I have to use a separate one with every one watching me go in.

Why am I some oddity that needs their own one

Yada Yada.

It is a complicated issue
 
Yeah. Well, anyway it will probably end up being the cleanest one so all the neatest children will want to use it. Maybe they will provide enough cover.
 
cullennz said:
Do you mind posting evidence they are massively over represented in elite women's athletics?
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It's in wikipedia.

In fact, high-performing female athletes show a rate of Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome much higher than the general population—which shows 1 in 20,000–50,000, compared with elite athletes’ 1 in 429.
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My point is that even the somewhat androgynous build of women with CAIS is enough to more than compensate for their complete lack of bioavailable androgen. They have skeletal features, lung capacity and so on some way skewed to the male side of the curve, even despite never having gone through puberty. And yet we're supposed to believe that normal 46XY men who have been through puberty and then have merely reduced their testosterone concentration to maybe only four times the upper limit of normal females don't have any athletic advantage.

Don't make me laugh.
 
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Since joining in this thread, I've been talking to all of my female friends and family. We have diverse views on all sorts of topics. Some are extremely progressive and politically active, some are deeply religious and socially conservative. I've got a bit family and a fair number of friends.

What has become clear through these conversations is a staggering lack of knowledge of what's going on with respect to transgender activism. Out of about 20 females I've talked to, all but one started from a position of "Yes, transwomen should be treated as women, and yes, I support them having equal rights".

But none of them were aware that most transwomen still have male genitalia, and that many of them have no intention of every getting GRS. None of them were aware that a not-insignificant number of transwomen have no intention of undertaking HRT or GRS at all. All of them were appalled to learn that Canada, Scotland, Ireland, California, and Nevada have all moved to a "Self-ID" approach to legal gender reporting, which does not require any medical consultation, therapy, or diagnosis at all. All of them were floored and concerned to find that some countries as well as California are now taking the default position that transwomen should be housed in female prisons, on their self-declaration of being women, regardless of whether they have male genitalia at all.

These are significant changes to our starting assumptions of how the world works, and how transwomen fit into that world. And a large amount of it is happening without our knowledge or our consent.
 
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