Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Emily's Cat]

Eh, it’s understandable if you spend your life with the background radiation of knowing there’s this huge biological imperative...

It’s a pain in the ass, and I can understand being worried that more inclusion of trans women means more risk and more dealing with all of that ****.

Excellent post. Trimmed for length.

This is something that Rolfe addressed way back in Volume 1 of this thread, that I think gets overlooked and brushed aside a lot.

It's not exactly transwomen that are the risk... it's the breaking of the unspoken social contract that females have had in place for so long.

As she mentioned, for a very long time, females were well aware that some of the people in our spaces were transgender - they were clearly male-bodied, but were living as women. Even though we could usually tell that they were physically male, we also recognized that being transgender has to absolutely suck in so many ways that it's almost inconceivable. We took it on faith that they were sincere and vulnerable, and needed the support and protection of other females - just as we do. And we assumed that those people in our midst were transsexual. We assumed that they had been diagnosed, treated by a psychologist, and already had GRS, or at worst, were on a clear path to it.

That has changed. The push now is that people can self-declare themselves to be women... with no medical diagnosis, no agreement from psychologists, and with no HRT or GRS - or even any intention of HRT or GRS. We are being told (not asked) to accept into our midst people who are proudly intact males, some of whom don't even attempt to appear female aside from a drag-queen-esque application of makeup and copious amounts of pink.

And we're being told that if we object to these interlopers in our intimate spaces, we're bigots who deserve abuse. We're being threatened. People who are biologically intact males are loudly proclaiming that females who oppose their desires deserve to be punched, raped to death, raped with barbed-wire covered baseball bats, beaten to death, have their throats slit. We are being told by the male-bodied people that because we want to preserve our private spaces... we are not human, we are unworthy of consideration or compassion.

That's a pretty significant change.

 

[Lithrael]

Yeah, I agree that a huge jump in young girls’ diagnoses like that is cause for concern, but it does look like the concern is leading to an appraisal of the situation as is appropriate. For a young troubled kid, I don’t see much upheaval from just trying out a different pronoun for a bit to see if that’s even the kind of problem that needs solving. I’d be worried about try-hard parents more than anything else. But yeah, kids who aren’t troubled don’t need anyone screening them to check if they need gender intervention. Kids who bring it up themselves and never drop it would probably benefit from a little therapy just to find out if they’re just internalizing negative cultural feelings (“none of my favorite characters are x!” But that is because writers in your favorite genre suck at x) or if they’re legit dysphoric. That kind of thing.

But until puberty is about to hit, and someone has to decide to go on blockers or not, it’s practically all fun and games. The only thing to do is to not misrepresent the amount of transition medicine is capable of; manage expectations. But I can’t imagine any therapist ignoring the future infertility issue for example, when helping a kid experiment with transition. But that also comes up with stuff like chemotherapy; it’s got to be appropriately balanced with the risks of not doing it.

I have to admit the fertility issue is one where I’m not really qualified to say much, since I only wanted kids when I was little and switched over to “no thanks, **** no, no, no, look can I help raise some kids someone else cooked instead?” before I was 20 and I stayed there. I’ve met women who are torn UP over not having kids so I know it’s a thing. But I probably can’t speak to how much weight that ought to have in all this.

 

[d4m10n]

Apologies if this has been covered somewhere in the past 10,000 posts... but isn't there an issue here of essential and non-essential characteristics. The essential characteristics defining women can be biological without denying that typically that then carries with it a host of particular experiences.

I'm of the opinion that nature isn't really obliged to provide us with essential characteristics. We observe that mammals reproduce sexually, and as a result we can nearly always be binned into the categories of male and female. Being born w/ ova is a fairly good discriminator the vast majority of the time, but we've got conditions such as CAIS which make it difficult to impossible to come up with essential biological characteristics.

 

[Lithrael]

People who are biologically intact males are loudly proclaiming that females who oppose their desires deserve to be punched, raped to death, raped with barbed-wire covered baseball bats, beaten to death, have their throats slit.

See this is where I fall right off of your argument. What angry people say when they’re talking **** on the internet does not mean anything to me. I don’t think it even reflects badly on anyone besides the actual person who is shooting off at the mouth and whoever posts ‘yeah!’ afterwards. You might as well talk about the things boys say when they’re playing counterstrike.

Would I prefer they didn’t? Would I like that sort of thing to stop being socially acceptable in their peer groups? You bet. Is it a warning sign worth checking up on to make sure the person is not dangerously bonkers? Sure. Am I worried about the risk they actually pose to other people? No not particularly. Do I think it accurately represents the sentiments of the group in general towards women? Not even a little. It’s frustration towards people who want to take their ball and go home, who would rather they go exist somewhere else.

It’s only the actual overwoke who come up with the stuff like “it’s vile bigotry to want a partner with a particular configuration of sexual organs” and if they want to be dicks about it on tumblr I honestly can’t be bothered to care. Most people are, shockingly, pretty sensible about this stuff on the actual human scale. They find such preferences maybe sad and disappointing and maybe degrading but not like, something you can try to fix by beating anyone up.

 

[shuttlt]

I'm of the opinion that nature isn't really obliged to provide us with essential characteristics. We observe that mammals reproduce sexually, and as a result we can nearly always be binned into the categories of male and female. Being born w/ ova is a fairly good discriminator the vast majority of the time, but we've got conditions such as CAIS which make it difficult to impossible to come up with essential biological characteristics.

Ignoring the human context here, somehow we are able to determine what sex fish, ants, hyena and all manner of different animals are. If you look across other species and how we define sex it's ova=female, sperm=male. People with CAIS have testes, what ever else may be going on, they aren't female based on the definition that works for every other species.

 

[Lithrael]

Lol, it took us a while with the hyena though didn’t it!

 

[d4m10n]

People with CAIS have testes, what ever else may be going on, they aren't female based on the definition that works for every other species.

I really don't think they do, though.

ETA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

ETA2: Undescended "in the place where the ovaries would have been" and typically surgically removed due to cancer risk.

 

[shuttlt]

I really don't think they do, though.

ETA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

From your link:
"The gonads in these women are not ovaries, but instead, are testes;"
and
"Immature sperm cells in the testes do not mature past an early stage, as sensitivity to androgens is required in order for spermatogenesis to complete."

So, they have testes and produce sperm.

 

[Emily's Cat]

See this is where I fall right off of your argument. What angry people say when they’re talking **** on the internet does not mean anything to me. I don’t think it even reflects badly on anyone besides the actual person who is shooting off at the mouth and whoever posts ‘yeah!’ afterwards. You might as well talk about the things boys say when they’re playing counterstrike.

Would I prefer they didn’t? Would I like that sort of thing to stop being socially acceptable in their peer groups? You bet. Is it a warning sign worth checking up on to make sure the person is not dangerously bonkers? Sure. Am I worried about the risk they actually pose to other people? No not particularly. Do I think it accurately represents the sentiments of the group in general towards women? Not even a little. It’s frustration towards people who want to take their ball and go home, who would rather they go exist somewhere else.

It’s only the actual overwoke who come up with the stuff like “it’s vile bigotry to want a partner with a particular configuration of sexual organs” and if they want to be dicks about it on tumblr I honestly can’t be bothered to care. Most people are, shockingly, pretty sensible about this stuff on the actual human scale. They find such preferences maybe sad and disappointing and maybe degrading but not like, something you can try to fix by beating anyone up.

I would like to take you view- and for quite sometime I did. I viewed it as being "nutso internettters" (along with a host of other anonymized internet behaviors that I find abhorrent).

But it has also spilled over into RL. For example, the transgender people who attacked the women at Speakers Corner in England a couple of years ago, for wanting to get together and discuss with transgender people the impact of the proposed changes to the GRA. Or like the activists who have shut down rape shelters that are designated female-only, and sent threats to the people who run and manage those facilities. Or the activists who physically barred entry and intimidated customers at a newly-opened feminist bookshop.

I will say that this phenomenon of social media extremism spilling over into real life and becoming normalized isn't limited to this subject. It's evident with respect to many other topics as well.

 

[d4m10n]

From your link:
"The gonads in these women are not ovaries, but instead, are testes;"

Noted; caught me in the middle of correcting the post.

ETA: I still think it's a bit of a stretch to say that individuals with CAIS are male, since they never produce sperm or undergo male puberty.

 

[shuttlt]

Noted; caught me in the middle of correcting the post.

ETA: I still think it's a bit of a stretch to say that individuals with CAIS are male, since they never produce sperm or undergo male puberty.

Children can be said to be male or female and they haven't undergone puberty. We aren't unsure of the sex of castrati because they didn't undergo puberty. CAIS individuals produce immature sperm, but they do produce them. If we are going to have a definition of male and female that covers all these different species with different chromosomes, hormones, genitals etc... I'm struggling to see how we define sex except via gametes.

 

[d4m10n]

Fair enough.

 

[Lithrael]

Or like the activists who have shut down rape shelters that are designated female-only, and sent threats to the people who run and manage those facilities.

Shut down in what sense? A cursory google just brings up the Vancouver shelter that lost its $34,000 city funding due to accusations of being trans exclusionary, but retains its $600,000 annual provincial grant. Vandalism is nasty and of course I don’t approve but again it takes only one person to do it. Threats also should be dealt with seriously but I don’t feel they reflect on the entire community any more than the vile antics of gamergate represented guys in general who love video games.

The other stuff is pretty typical fringe activity, I think.

 

[cullennz]

Moving the goal posts after you've already kicked the ball is a little bit silly.

It brings a bit of a tear to my eye but this brings up special memories for me.

Forgive me if get emotional.

It reminds of my dad's last words to me before he kicked the bucket.

He looked at me earnestly and said.

"Son. ... Do you want to see how far I can kick this bucket some one has left on the ground there?

(I know. Immature joke, but makes me laugh)

 

[Rolfe]

Noted; caught me in the middle of correcting the post.

ETA: I still think it's a bit of a stretch to say that individuals with CAIS are male, since they never produce sperm or undergo male puberty.

Children can be said to be male or female and they haven't undergone puberty. We aren't unsure of the sex of castrati because they didn't undergo puberty. CAIS individuals produce immature sperm, but they do produce them. If we are going to have a definition of male and female that covers all these different species with different chromosomes, hormones, genitals etc... I'm struggling to see how we define sex except via gametes.

See, this is why I favour the definition of woman that includes anyone without functional androgen receptors. CAIS women are undoubtedly women.

 

[d4m10n]

See, this is why I favour the definition of woman that includes anyone without functional androgen receptors. CAIS women are undoubtedly women.

Are you talking about "women" in the "adult human female" sense or more as a social category?

 

[LondonJohn]

I addressed this multiple times in this thread. Additionally, I've reiterated my view on bathrooms and changing rooms multiple times. Perhaps if I try just once more, you will actually comprehend, and will then stop trying to 'gotcha" me for not typing out the Gutenberg Bible every single time the topic crosses you mind and you feel compelled to boil it down to your misrepresentation of my views again.

1) Toilets, I don't care. I prefer that you use whichever toilet most rational people are going to assume you belong in. And at the end of the day, if you decide to ignore my preference, I really don't give a crap about toilets.

2) Changing rooms, locker rooms, and other places where people are routinely naked and in a vulnerable state. I prefer that they be sex-segregated. That's the whole point of them in the first place. With an eye to being realistic, however, I will consider a person who has had GRS to be honorable members of the sex that their bodies now resemble. For people who have begun hormone therapy, and are actively seeking to pass as the opposite sex, use reason. If you mostly look like a female, use the ladies - but if you've got a penis keep it covered and out of sight. If you mostly look like a male, use the mens - but if you've got boobies, keep them covered. If a person self-declares themselves to be transgender, but is not passing (for example, Seani who has a full beard and presents as a male) then use the rooms designated for your biological sex, because your internal feeling doesn't override the rights of females to have a space free of males.

3) Prisons. No naturally functioning biological penises in the female ward. That means no transwomen that have not had complete GRS. But it DOES allow transmen who have had complete GRS. This is a matter of safety for people who do not have any option at all to leave the venue. Females, regardless of how they identify, are smaller, weaker, and less aggressive than males. Even a fully transitioned transman is at a higher risk of assault in the men's ward. A fully transitioned transwoman is still bigger and stronger than females, but without a penis the risk of harm and impregnation from rape are significantly reduced. I am willing to allow case-by-case consideration of transwomen who are not fully transitioned, with significant weight given to the type of crime committed that landed them in jail in the first place. If transwomen are at higher risk in the male ward, then set aside a wing for them or find some other solution. Putting penises in lock-up with females is not an acceptable solution on the whole.

Your system of case-by-case checks is wholly impossible to implement in the real world. You do know that, don't you?

So what's your real-world suggestion?


(Less of the extreme exasperation as well, please - remember what you told me!)

 

[Rolfe]

The other interesting thing about CAIS women is that they have zero bioavailable testosterone, compared to the normal female concentration of around 0.5 to 2 nmol/l. If testosterone was the be-all and end-all of athletic performance you'd imagine they'd be nowhere in the athletics stakes. Instead they are massively over-represented in elite women's athletics. Go figure.

 

[Boudicca90]

Yeah, I agree that a huge jump in young girls’ diagnoses like that is cause for concern, but it does look like the concern is leading to an appraisal of the situation as is appropriate. For a young troubled kid, I don’t see much upheaval from just trying out a different pronoun for a bit to see if that’s even the kind of problem that needs solving. I’d be worried about try-hard parents more than anything else. But yeah, kids who aren’t troubled don’t need anyone screening them to check if they need gender intervention. Kids who bring it up themselves and never drop it would probably benefit from a little therapy just to find out if they’re just internalizing negative cultural feelings (“none of my favorite characters are x!” But that is because writers in your favorite genre suck at x) or if they’re legit dysphoric. That kind of thing.

But until puberty is about to hit, and someone has to decide to go on blockers or not, it’s practically all fun and games. The only thing to do is to not misrepresent the amount of transition medicine is capable of; manage expectations. But I can’t imagine any therapist ignoring the future infertility issue for example, when helping a kid experiment with transition. But that also comes up with stuff like chemotherapy; it’s got to be appropriately balanced with the risks of not doing it.

I have to admit the fertility issue is one where I’m not really qualified to say much, since I only wanted kids when I was little and switched over to “no thanks, **** no, no, no, look can I help raise some kids someone else cooked instead?” before I was 20 and I stayed there. I’ve met women who are torn UP over not having kids so I know it’s a thing. But I probably can’t speak to how much weight that ought to have in all this.

Fertility issues is something transgender people who go through HRT are going to run into, and even an adult can be wrong about what they want. Before starting HRT, I was told the risks and asked if I wanted to bank some sperm beforehand. I didn't like kids and had no desire to have them, so I said it wasn't necessary. I regret that now.

Having a different mix of hormones in your body causes a lot of changes and I have realized lately that I do want children, but it might be too late for me at this point. There are other methods like adoption of course, but that is a regret I have. It is still ultimately a small negative compared to all the positives I've experienced in transitioning.

See this is where I fall right off of your argument. What angry people say when they’re talking **** on the internet does not mean anything to me. I don’t think it even reflects badly on anyone besides the actual person who is shooting off at the mouth and whoever posts ‘yeah!’ afterwards. You might as well talk about the things boys say when they’re playing counterstrike.

Would I prefer they didn’t? Would I like that sort of thing to stop being socially acceptable in their peer groups? You bet. Is it a warning sign worth checking up on to make sure the person is not dangerously bonkers? Sure. Am I worried about the risk they actually pose to other people? No not particularly. Do I think it accurately represents the sentiments of the group in general towards women? Not even a little. It’s frustration towards people who want to take their ball and go home, who would rather they go exist somewhere else.

It’s only the actual overwoke who come up with the stuff like “it’s vile bigotry to want a partner with a particular configuration of sexual organs” and if they want to be dicks about it on tumblr I honestly can’t be bothered to care. Most people are, shockingly, pretty sensible about this stuff on the actual human scale. They find such preferences maybe sad and disappointing and maybe degrading but not like, something you can try to fix by beating anyone up.

Thank you, that sums up how I view it.

It's disgusting and not a great look for us, but I understand people saying that kind of stuff in frustration considering the bigotry we deal with. The problem is things you normally say in frustration aren't typically saved for posterity online where everyone can view it.

 

[LondonJohn]

Again, you're simply making assumptions about this. Go look into who has been involved, the degree of female representation, then get back to us. Stop just assuming that it "must have been so".

AHAHAHAHA! Would you have preferred me to use "did" instead of "would have done", then?

You feel free to carry on with your wholly-unsubstantiated fantasy that the body of people who drew up DSM-5, and the body of people who vote on government legislation, are a shady cabal entirely consisting of misogynistic males whose aim is to entirely disregard the rights of females


(Unless, of course, you have actual documentary evidence to support your extremist, CT, claims, of course. What's that? No? You don't? You mean it's all in your imagination? Oh well...)