Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[theprestige]

It's certainly iffy. People could go way overboard in rushing to judgement.

I think the intent of the second and third items though was to really involve a "strong preference", and be fairly explicit. Boys' and girls' clothes for pre-teens have an awful lot of overlap, so I wouldn't say a girl who prefers jeans and t-shirts to dresses checked that box, but a boy who wanted to wear dresses, or either one who wanted to wear the other sex's underwear, it might be a sign. Also with fantasy games, I took it to literally playing specifically genderized roles, so a girl playing "house" who wants to be the daddy all the time, might be showing a sign, but a girl who wanted to be a soldier would not check that box.

It occurs to me, though, the danger of boxes like that. Rolfe has repeatedly posted discussions about young people being encouraged and rewarded for declaring themselves transgender just because they had checked those boxes, and pushed into irreversible treatments.

So, your point is worthy of note. People really need to be careful in using those as a strong indicator, and make sure that the kid isn't just showing some mild preference toward gender noncomformity.

ETA: And, related to my previous point about tomboys being really sexy as adults was really a reference to the fact that "gender conforming" might not mean what it used to. Some things that would have been considered "boyish" in my youth are now considered very feminine. Psychologists really need to be sure they are up to the times when using those guidelines.

As far as I can tell, a lot of the seemly mundane checklist items in the DSM actually have significant nuances in the context of professional training and experience in the relevant medical fields. Like there's a whole process that board-certified psychiatrists follow when giving weight to the checklist items, that's necessary for proper diagnosis but discussed nowhere in the DSM itself.

 

[LondonJohn]

Okay, now exercise your ability to extrapolate, and consider the situation if you were female...

Exercising my ability to extrapolate... rolleyes

...if I were female a cis woman*, I'd welcome trans women to their new identity, but I'd certainly want to try as hard as I could to ensure that my own rights and protections - and those of all cis women - were respected, within reason.

For example, to take the thorny old changing rooms issue, I'd want to seek a level of assurance that all reasonable steps were going to be taken to maintain the personal safety of cis women - for example, I'd like to see things such as pre-registration (in staffed venues), and some level of proof of transgender identity**. And I'd probably like to see some level of CCTV coverage in these sorts of women's changing rooms, which could only be accessed and viewed if there were allegations of criminal offences.

Plus, on a more general level, I'd also probably want to see legislation regarding sexual and physical assaults to be modified - in order to ensure that attacks/assaults within gender-segregated spaces were explicitly legislated in a more severe manner compared with attacks/assaults in any other place. I'd see this as the creation of a significant deterrent.

And lastly, I'd want to ensure that the situation was closely monitored in the early years - so that (for example) if it turned out that a) trans women were assaulting/attacking cis women within gender-segregated spaces in significant numbers, or b) cis men were being able to masquerade as trans women in significant numbers, and were then using this masquerade as an opportunity to attack/assault cis women...... I'd want to see the relevant laws and regulations re-evaluated in this light, and amended as required. I've stated this several times previously as well.



* Using the term "female" is of no use here, since trans men also belong to the set "females". The correct term is "cis women" (or alternatively, "those females who identify as women").

** And note that while I realise that this could potentially be viewed as discriminatory treatment of trans women (as opposed to the treatment of cis women), I'd suggest - as I have done many times before - that these sorts of things would be a price worth paying by trans women, in order to a) enable them to have their wider rights respected, while b) recognising the need to engage in a form of social contract in order to respect the reasonable concerns of cis women.

 

[Elaedith]

As far as I can tell, a lot of the seemly mundane checklist items in the DSM actually have significant nuances in the context of professional training and experience in the relevant medical fields. Like there's a whole process that board-certified psychiatrists follow when giving weight to the checklist items, that's necessary for proper diagnosis but discussed nowhere in the DSM itself.

Yes, but that also allows various types of external pressure and other biasing factors to affect the judgement process.

Look at what has been happening with the Tavistock clinic in the UK.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Exercising my ability to extrapolate... rolleyes

...if I were female a cis woman*, I'd welcome trans women to their new identity, but I'd certainly want to try as hard as I could to ensure that my own rights and protections - and those of all cis women - were respected, within reason.

Start over please. My request was not about gender, it was about sex. It was very intentionally about sex-based rights and protections, not about gender identity at all.

Now, with that in mind, and with thought toward female rights, female oppression, and a long history - and current continuation of - discrimination against females on the basis of sex... Give it a go, please.

 

[LondonJohn]

Start over please. My request was not about gender, it was about sex. It was very intentionally about sex-based rights and protections, not about gender identity at all.

Now, with that in mind, and with thought toward female rights, female oppression, and a long history - and current continuation of - discrimination against females on the basis of sex... Give it a go, please.

So where do trans men fit into your argument?

And that final paragraph......sheeeesh.

 

[LondonJohn]

(I feel another internal contradiction coming on )

 

[Emily's Cat]

So where do trans men fit into your argument?

And that final paragraph......sheeeesh.

I dunno, John... What biological sex are transmen?

 

[LondonJohn]

Yeah, that's a fail on your part. I don't have any misandry. I'm rather fond of males in general. Additionally, I recognize and support efforts to eradicate socially enforced gender roles that confine men, especially with respect to child care, child custody, and breadwinner expectations. I support the equal rights of men in those areas, and I acknowledge that in some areas of social interaction, men are discriminated against and disadvantaged.

Recognizing deeply ingrained sex-based biases and systemic sexism doesn't make me sexist against males. A black person recognizing and pointing out deeply ingrained race-based biases and systemic racism wouldn't make them racist against white people, would it?

The discussion we're having here has got nothing per se to do with any considerations of discrimination by men against women.

It might have been a valid consideration if things like DSM-5 had been exclusively compiled by misogynistic men, and/or if the changes in law in many major democracies had been exclusively enacted by misogynistic men. But neither of those things was/is true.

So can we please start steering back towards transgender identity and transgender rights?

 

[LondonJohn]

I dunno, John... What biological sex are transmen?

You know very well the answer to that, Emily.

But I'll play along with your affected ignorance for a moment, and tell you that trans men are biological females.

So: where do trans men fit into your argument, Emily?

 

[Emily's Cat]

You know very well the answer to that, Emily.

But I'll play along with your affected ignorance for a moment, and tell you that trans men are biological females.

So: where do trans men fit into your argument, Emily?

Well, since my request was with respect to the rights of females, I would say they go in the category of females, wouldn't you?

 

[LondonJohn]

Well, since my request was with respect to the rights of females, I would say they go in the category of females, wouldn't you?

So what sort of rights should trans men have, in your world?

(When answering, bear in mind that trans men identify as men - unless you happen to deny them that right...?)

 

[Emily's Cat]

The discussion we're having here has got nothing per se to do with any considerations of discrimination by men against women.

...

So can we please start steering back towards transgender identity and transgender rights?

Don't bait and switch terms here. The bulk of this thread, and the entire basis for disagreement is because there is a conflict between the rights and protections that transgender people want to have - on the basis of their gender identity - and the rights and protections that females want to have - on the basis of their biological sex. That's the whole crux of the issue.

So please stop substituting in gender terminology as if it's the same as biological sex terminology.

With respect to sexism... There are some pretty well documented social phenomenon reflective of sexism. This includes a massive amount of internalized bias related to sex, as well as socially reinforced gender roles and behavioral expectations that are framed around biological sex.

One of those biases is the persistent tendency of males to dismiss the views of females as being unimportant. Very frequently, males will view the complaints of females as being overreactions, as them being hysterical. Males will assume that females anger is due to PMS, because it's just their time of the month, so they're being emotional about it. There is a widespread tendency of males to decide that whatever females are arguing for is actually "no big deal". And there is a very clear and observable tendency of males to either talk over females or simply to ignore their contributions to discussion - especially policy discussion.

Included in this dismissal is the tendency of males to minimize or excuse sexual assaults and sexual violence toward females. Even after the volumes of females speaking out as part of #MeToo, we still see males assuming that females are making a big deal out of something, because males don't see it as that big a deal. We still see frequent minimization of the abuse females suffer at the hands of males - we see excuses for why the female was overreacting, the impact the accusation of females could have on a male's life and career, we still see dismissals that imply the female was asking for it.

I see this carrying through in this thread. Even though sexual violence against females is incredibly common and widespread... it gets ignored and deemed unimportant in this discussion. The increased risk to females presented by allowing self-declaration of male-bodied people into vulnerable spaces gets framed as bigotry and oppression by females. The fact that this increases our risk of sexual abuse is so easily dismissed by some of the males in this thread that it's a bit frightening.

You've obviously put a lot of effort into trying to understand and empathize with the challenges faced by transgender people.

How much effort have you put into trying to understand and empathize with the challenges faced by females?

 

[Emily's Cat]

So what sort of rights should trans men have, in your world?

(When answering, bear in mind that trans men identify as men - unless you happen to deny them that right...?)

No, I'm not going to play stupid games with you. I asked you a question, you gave me an answer to a completely different question by switching out terms - that in itself is dishonest interaction. When I clarified my question, you deflect with questions of your own.

This is not good-faith interaction.

 

[LondonJohn]

No, I'm not going to play stupid games with you. I asked you a question, you gave me an answer to a completely different question by switching out terms - that in itself is dishonest interaction. When I clarified my question, you deflect with questions of your own.

This is not good-faith interaction.

No, I didn't do that. This is entirely a figment of your own imagination, I'm afraid.

You were the one who was seeking to switch from gender segregation (which is the only game in town, if you hadn't noticed) to sex segregation.

I then asked where trans men fit into your philosophy - specifically because trans men are biological females (and thus belong in your sex-segregated spaces), yet they identify as men.

I was asking you to address this glaring contradiction in your argument.

And in response, you seem to be believing that a) attack is somehow the best form of defence, and b) if enough bluster and bombast is generated, perhaps I'll/we'll forget that you didn't answer the question.


Anyhooo, bedtime for me now. And frankly, for a whole host of reasons, I don't really see much point in bothering to contribute to this thread very much now.

 

[d4m10n]

A thought experiment for anyone who's interested: Suppose you find yourself in a hilarious body-swap situation like the ones you've seen portrayed in various films. If you're a cisgender woman you're now in the body of a cisgender man, and vice-versa. If you're a transgender woman you're now in the body of a transgender man, and vice-versa. Do you continue to attend the changing rooms and bathrooms that match your personal sense of self, or do you switch rooms based on the appearance of your new body?

 

[cullennz]

So what sort of rights should trans men have, in your world?



(When answering, bear in mind that trans men identify as men - unless you happen to deny them that right...?)

Think this should be more directed and guys given the arguments between female and trans women rights.

Think most males don't really care what a trans man does or goes.

But we are dudes and didn't really have to fight for what we have like females.

In a way it's a totally different scenario. Which is why it doesn't get mentioned much.

 

[LondonJohn]

Don't bait and switch terms here. The bulk of this thread, and the entire basis for disagreement is because there is a conflict between the rights and protections that transgender people want to have - on the basis of their gender identity - and the rights and protections that females want to have - on the basis of their biological sex. That's the whole crux of the issue.

So please stop substituting in gender terminology as if it's the same as biological sex terminology.

With respect to sexism... There are some pretty well documented social phenomenon reflective of sexism. This includes a massive amount of internalized bias related to sex, as well as socially reinforced gender roles and behavioral expectations that are framed around biological sex.

One of those biases is the persistent tendency of males to dismiss the views of females as being unimportant. Very frequently, males will view the complaints of females as being overreactions, as them being hysterical. Males will assume that females anger is due to PMS, because it's just their time of the month, so they're being emotional about it. There is a widespread tendency of males to decide that whatever females are arguing for is actually "no big deal". And there is a very clear and observable tendency of males to either talk over females or simply to ignore their contributions to discussion - especially policy discussion.

Included in this dismissal is the tendency of males to minimize or excuse sexual assaults and sexual violence toward females. Even after the volumes of females speaking out as part of #MeToo, we still see males assuming that females are making a big deal out of something, because males don't see it as that big a deal. We still see frequent minimization of the abuse females suffer at the hands of males - we see excuses for why the female was overreacting, the impact the accusation of females could have on a male's life and career, we still see dismissals that imply the female was asking for it.

I see this carrying through in this thread. Even though sexual violence against females is incredibly common and widespread... it gets ignored and deemed unimportant in this discussion. The increased risk to females presented by allowing self-declaration of male-bodied people into vulnerable spaces gets framed as bigotry and oppression by females. The fact that this increases our risk of sexual abuse is so easily dismissed by some of the males in this thread that it's a bit frightening.

You've obviously put a lot of effort into trying to understand and empathize with the challenges faced by transgender people.

How much effort have you put into trying to understand and empathize with the challenges faced by females?

I ask once again: if you think that sex-segregation is the "correct" way to go, then how do you account for trans men? For example, which of the (now-mythical) changing rooms should trans men use, in your worldview*?


* And surely it wouldn't take more than a few seconds of your time to produce even a one-word response to this question......

 

[cullennz]

Let me put it this way.

No trans man is going to enter a professional sport and whip **** dudes who do it for their livelihood as it is their only option.

No bloke has to worry about some trans man hassling them in the dudes changing room

Etc etc

 

[LondonJohn]

Think this should be more directed and guys given the arguments between female and trans women rights.

Think most males don't really care what a trans man does or goes.

But we are dudes and didn't really have to fight for what we have like females.

In a way it's a totally different scenario. Which is why it doesn't get mentioned much.

And I'll just keep coming back to this: the validation of gender dysphoria and transgender identity was not done by a shady cabal of misogynistic males in a back room somewhere.

Rather: plenty of females - and not just any females, but actually females who are extremely well-educated, well-informed, and highly expert in the very fields of medicine which are directly relevant to this issue - will have contributed to the evolution of medical thinking wrt transgender identity (and, as a direct consequence, the need to enshrine and uphold transgender rights in law); and plenty of other highly-educated, highly-experienced and highly-skilled females will have sat on legislative committees and helped formulate governmental policy and legislation in this area.

I, for one, don't doubt that these very women will be fully cognisant in the historic oppression of women, and the levels of oppression and imbalance which still (regrettably) exist today. Yet they were apparently able to contextualise this successfully when they affirmed both the validity and rights associated with transgender identity. And I, for one, would take their conclusions any day over some of the opinions being mooted within this thread.

 

[LondonJohn]

Let me put it this way.

No trans man is going to enter a professional sport and whip **** dudes who do it for their livelihood as it is their only option.

No bloke has to worry about some trans man hassling them in the dudes changing room

Etc etc

As has been pointed out many times recently - there are undoubtedly several specific areas (and you've brought up two such areas here) in which a negotiation, arbitration and monitored outcome will need to happen.

Some of it will be pure trial and error. Some of it will be hypothesis-based. Some of it will need to be heavily tweaked once reliable evidential data start coming in. Some of it may need to be ditched and totally re-thought once reliable evidential data start coming in.

Speaking personally, I believe that trans women should not gain the right to compete in elite or sub-elite women's sport (in those sports where physiology and/or anatomy can be the source of competitive advantage). And I believe that trans women should have the right to use women's changing rooms - but only after certain safeguards have been put in place to try to mitigate the risk to other women using the changing room (and I've outlined some possible safeguards very recently within this thread).



Anyhow anyhow, I really am shutting up shop now. Ciao for now.