Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[theprestige]

To take a trivial example I don't believe that I prefer strawberry ice-cream to chocolate ice-cream, I know it in my deepest core senses.

The problem with trivial examples is that gender identity and segregation by sex are not trivial issues at all.

Your deepest core sense about your ice cream preference shouldn't obligate ice cream vendors to put strawberry ice cream up for sale alongside chocolate ice cream, if they don't want to.

And even non-trivial examples don't necessarily create a social obligations. Your deepest core sense that you're the Emperor Napoleon doesn't oblige anyone to do anything about it, except perhaps the overall social obligation we have to help you get treatment and accommodation for your mental disorder (assuming it's an actual disorder, and not just a valid human condition).

My deepest core sense that I'm an attack helicopter doesn't oblige anyone to pop smoke and launch heatseekers if they see me coming around the shoulder of a hill.

 

[Elaedith]

You know what I find interesting (and troubling)? The DSM is pretty clear at saying that gender nonconformity is NOT a mental disorder of any sort, it's not pathologized at all.

But the criteria for Gender Dysphoria in children, as outlined by the DSM-V are heavily weighted toward gender nonconformity:


I hit most of those as a child. Because being a "girl" as society defined it was boring and confining and stupid as far as I was concerned. Girl toys were boring and vapid, legos, lincoln logs, and hot wheels was where it was at. Barbie was far less interesting than superhero action figures. Playing house was dull and mostly involved chores whereas playing cowboys & indians or cops & robbers was engaging, tactical, and exciting!. Dresses were dumb and you had to worry about your panties showing - pants, especially overalls - were way better for climbing trees and playing chase and vaulting though the monkey bars. And boy oh boy did I wish I had a penis when I was a kid, because seriously - having to stop playing and go all the way home so you can pee was really annoying. And I liked playing with boys because boys did all the fun stuff that I wanted to do!

So... I think if I were a kid today, there'd be some pressure to decide that I was experiencing gender dysphoria. Not because I was, but because society's roles and expectations of the two sexes are stupid beyond repair.

Being a tomboy does not in any way mean that you're actually a boy.

Yes, the criteria still have serious problems. It is still possible on those criteria for a child to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria for being gender non-conforming, and experiencing distress which could be a secondary consequence of social rejection or punishment for not conforming to gender stereotypes.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

So, you have a disorder then? That's just unnatural.

Although, I confess, there are times I would rather have strawberry than chocolate, depending on my mood. I guess my ice-cream preference identity is fluid.

I'm fairly sure that it's not unreasonable to think at some point in the future I could have an equally strongly held core belief that I prefer chocolate ice-cream after all. If it did happen I would like to think I would not be forced to continue to eat strawberry ice-cream after I expressed my new ice-cream identity.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yes, the criteria still have serious problems. It is still possible on those criteria for a child to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria for being gender non-conforming, and experiencing distress which could be a secondary consequence of social rejection or punishment for not conforming to gender stereotypes.

It's possible for someone with clinical depression to be told they are just feeling a bit sad, or vice versa. Of course these things are going to be imprecise and we should always make efforts to improve but it doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater either.

 

[theprestige]

It's possible for someone with clinical depression to be told they are just feeling a bit sad, or vice versa. Of course these things are going to be imprecise and we should always make efforts to improve but it doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater either.

In this metaphor, segregation of safe spaces by sex is the bathwater, and the concerns of women is the baby being thrown out with it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

As a general note, I'm also getting really irritated by the observation that the male transgender activists in this thread have almost entirely quit engaging with any of the biologically female posters. When they do engage with the biologically female posters, they are curt, dismissive, insulting, and demeaning.

But they continue to engage, quite civilly at that, with the male posters who oppose some elements of transgender activism.

You've made it quite clear that you believe trans activism is just some plot by misogynistic men to strip back hard fought victories achieved by feminists to protect "real" women. The implication of this post, and others, is quite clear.

This viewpoint borders on conspiratorial. I trust you understand why people are dismissive of such things.

 

[LondonJohn]

"they've rebadged it, you ****!"

"I'm not driving a Mini Metro!"


Pah! Ninja'd!

 

[Meadmaker]

Yes, the criteria still have serious problems. It is still possible on those criteria for a child to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria for being gender non-conforming, and experiencing distress which could be a secondary consequence of social rejection or punishment for not conforming to gender stereotypes.

I don't think it's all that bad. To rephrase my previous posts, there are eight categories in the DSM symptoms for gender dysphoria in children, and only three of them are strictly for gender-nonconformity. Two others are sort of about gender nonconformity, but go beyond that. Six of them are required for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

So, someone who is completely and totally non-conforming to their gender stereotypes, even to the point of wearing opposite sex clothes and having a strong preference for opposite sex roles in fantasy play, would still not constitute behavior for gender dysphoria.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You've made it quite clear that you believe trans activism is just some plot by misogynistic men to strip back hard fought victories achieved by feminists to protect "real" women. The implication of this post, and others, is quite clear.

This viewpoint borders on conspiratorial. I trust you understand why people are dismissive of such things.

It would be really refreshing if you bothered to actually read my perspectives.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But to the point of the post previous to this, I think the DSM can be forgiven for it's use of gender stereotypes in the children's diagnosis of gender dysphoria. It required six of those categories, and I think the overall sense was that if your kid is constantly doing only boy things or only girl things, along with saying "I'm a boy", and whatever else was in those other categories, the favoritism to stereotypically boy things is just another element confirming that this person is really trying to fit in with the boys.

I think it's a bit iffy though..

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
• A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one's assigned gender
• A strong dislike of one's sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one's experienced gender

Five of the eight items they list are very strongly tied to gender roles and social expectations of gender expression. And several of them are highly correlated with each other, which is going to cause clusters of items to show up together.

for example, the two red items are complements of each other - it's highly unlikely that you're going to get a strong preference for boys toys, without having a rejection for girls toys.

And if you have a strong preference for boys toys and games, without also having a preference for playmates who also play with those same kinds of toys. Thus, a tomboy who likes trucks and building blocks and climbing trees is highly likely to reject dolls and playing house. And because she likes "boy" toys, she's more likely to want to associate with other people who like "boy" toys... which are highly likely to be boys. And if she dislikes playing house and being the nice polite little girl that society says she ought to, she's more likely to make-believe herself in roles that are associated with boys - cops and robbers and doctors and soldiers and similar kinds of gender-segregated societal roles than make-believing roles of mommy and wife and babysitter. And if you're hanging out predominantly with people of the opposite sex - especially prior to the onset of puberty - there's going to be a tendency to want to fit in with them, which includes clothing that is similar to ones peer group.

At the end of the day, a child who doesn't conform to (idiotic imo) social gender roles for their sex is going to tick all five of those highlighted items, with pretty serious regularity.

At that point, pretty much any expression of wanting to be a boy in any way (including, for example, my wish for a penis so I could pee at the park instead of having to go home) would cement the notion that the child is transgender.

It ends up really discounting the possibility that the kid is simply smart enough to realize that socially enforced gender roles are just stupid as holy hell.

 

[Matthew Best]

It would be really refreshing if you bothered to actually read my perspectives.

You're probably too shrill.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm fairly sure that it's not unreasonable to think at some point in the future I could have an equally strongly held core belief that I prefer chocolate ice-cream after all. If it did happen I would like to think I would not be forced to continue to eat strawberry ice-cream after I expressed my new ice-cream identity.

I think your analogy really breaks down here. Most people's taste preferences change throughout their lives. It's very common for taste preferences to shift at puberty, for example. It's also very common for females of the species to experience significant shifts in taste preferences during pregnancy, which are persistent afterwards.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're probably too shrill.

Perhaps I need to smile more, and be more soft-spoken. Maybe try not to be so domineering.

I should really learn to keep my hysteria in check.

 

[Paul2]

Yes, completely agree. But hopefully we also agree that denying rights because of bigotry is a) bad and b) something that HAS been observed to be the case for almost every rights movement in the past. So we need to be careful to guard against it.

Totally agree. Eternal diligence.

 

[Ziggurat]

"they've rebadged it, you ****!"

I was curious about the reference and looked it up, and now I'm more amused by the fact that the **** bit was just "fool" and didn't actually need censoring. Reminds me a bit of the Jimmy Kimmel bit, "unnecessary censorship".

 

[Emily's Cat]

I joined this discussion about halfway through the third edition of this thread. I recently decided to go back and re-read the beginning. I'm about halfway through the first edition.

Interestingly, my observations hold true even then.

There seems to be three main categories of participants. There's a minor category of people who pop in with trolling posts, completely misinformed posts, and similar, who don't stick around or really take material part in the debate, and I'm just going to lump them all together as "others" and ignore them for the moment.

The three main categories of posters are:

Transgender Activists
Gender Critical Cis-Men
Gender Critical Cis-Women

You might notice that I have subdivided the Gender Critical group... but not the Transgender Activists group. That's because even though their views and their arguments are substantially the same... the tone of their interactions are not. There's a very persistent pattern wherein Transgender Activists continue to interact with respect and civility toward Gender Critical Cis-Men... but those same Transgender Activists persistently dismiss and demean Gender Critical Cis-Women.

It's an interesting phenomenon. It's worth looking back through the prior threads. From the very beginning, it's a clear pattern. Cis-Women who object to the ideology are dismissed as bigots, talked down to, ignored, and treated as if their views are hysterical and not worthy of discussion. Cis-Men who express almost identical views are engaged with and treated with civility, even when they are disagreed with.

 

[Matthew Best]

I was curious about the reference and looked it up, and now I'm more amused by the fact that the **** bit was just "fool" and didn't actually need censoring. Reminds me a bit of the Jimmy Kimmel bit, "unnecessary censorship".

I didn't want to accuse anyone of being a fool!

 

[Meadmaker]

I think it's a bit iffy though..
.....
At the end of the day, a child who doesn't conform to (idiotic imo) social gender roles for their sex is going to tick all five of those highlighted items, with pretty serious regularity.

At that point, pretty much any expression of wanting to be a boy in any way (including, for example, my wish for a penis so I could pee at the park instead of having to go home) would cement the notion that the child is transgender.

It ends up really discounting the possibility that the kid is simply smart enough to realize that socially enforced gender roles are just stupid as holy hell.

It's certainly iffy. People could go way overboard in rushing to judgement.

I think the intent of the second and third items though was to really involve a "strong preference", and be fairly explicit. Boys' and girls' clothes for pre-teens have an awful lot of overlap, so I wouldn't say a girl who prefers jeans and t-shirts to dresses checked that box, but a boy who wanted to wear dresses, or either one who wanted to wear the other sex's underwear, it might be a sign. Also with fantasy games, I took it to literally playing specifically genderized roles, so a girl playing "house" who wants to be the daddy all the time, might be showing a sign, but a girl who wanted to be a soldier would not check that box.

It occurs to me, though, the danger of boxes like that. Rolfe has repeatedly posted discussions about young people being encouraged and rewarded for declaring themselves transgender just because they had checked those boxes, and pushed into irreversible treatments.

So, your point is worthy of note. People really need to be careful in using those as a strong indicator, and make sure that the kid isn't just showing some mild preference toward gender noncomformity.

ETA: And, related to my previous point about tomboys being really sexy as adults was really a reference to the fact that "gender conforming" might not mean what it used to. Some things that would have been considered "boyish" in my youth are now considered very feminine. Psychologists really need to be sure they are up to the times when using those guidelines.

 

[Ziggurat]

At that point, pretty much any expression of wanting to be a boy in any way (including, for example, my wish for a penis so I could pee at the park instead of having to go home) would cement the notion that the child is transgender.

Children's understanding of sex and gender is so shallow that this sort of thing is quite common. The desire to read more significance into it is really dangerous.

Here's an amusing bit that takes that too far (intentionally):

 

[Agatha]

Another bunch of posts has gone to AAH and several posts have been edited for various breaches of the MA; chiefly incivility, derailing and personalisation. Unless you can all make much greater efforts to keep your posts within the MA this thread will return to moderated status.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha