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Tookie Williams: clemency denied

Against Capital Punishment:

Logical:

- no evidence that it is a deterrent

Well, to be fair to the pro-DP folks, executing a murderer does prevent that particular person from ever murdering again.

Which makes me wonder about non-DP countries. What kind of murder rate do you have inside prisons?
 
Which makes me wonder about non-DP countries. What kind of murder rate do you have inside prisons?

During the time frame of 1998-2000 two men were murdered while they were in prison in Finland (I don't have more recent stats).

I don't have exact prisoner stats but around that time there were about 3000 prisoners in jail at the same time with an average length of sentence being about 8 months with the the prisoner getting a parole after sitting half of the time. This means that during the time period there were roughly 12000 different prisoners in a year and 36000 in three years, giving a murder rate of one prison murder per 18000 prisoners.

Of course, this analysis is very rudimentary and ignores quite a lot of details that would probably be very important but I don't have an access to more detailed statistics.

One thing that statistics tells is that around here 54% of killers have prior convictions for violent crimes and 70% of killers are drunk when they do the crime. I don't have stats on how many killer kills again after being released from prison. Those cases are not common but they do happen. The nastiest case was in late 80s when the president decided to pardon a murderer who was serving a life sentence for killing four cops and it didn't take two years before he was back in courtroom, this time for murdering his wife. I can only hope that no future president decides to let him loose again.
 
Yes you have. Your position is based on the assumption that the justice system was perfect and that no innocent people were executed or convicted prior to DNA testing.

Actually, it's even more ridiculous than that. It also assumes that in cases where there was no DNA evidence the court system magically worked perfectly, instead of convicting innocent people a hefty chunk of the time the way it did in the cases where there was DNA evidence.

I don't know how DNA works this evil magic to generate false convictions. Theories, Nyarl?
 
In case anybody reading way back here on page 5 is still interested in hearing about the Tookster and his case, here are some pictures and commentary from the moonbat vigil at his execution.
 
A life sentence properly applied should mean just that - life in jail, no possibility of getting out, no possibility of recidivism.



How about an article from Skeptical Enquirer?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=1176

Many more articles about the ineffectiveness of the death penalty as a deterrent are on that site as well.

Thank you for bringing that report to my attention. It sure was long...but quite an interesting peek into the world of the statastician. :confused:

However Mephisto said it best...the purpose of the DP is not as a deterrent per se; although it is obvious that it has the potential to deter a would-be murderer who has a well developed sense of self preservation.

Also a person incarcerated for life may escape and harm someone. Certainly such a person would have little incentive to refrain from harming anyone. Then there are crimes against other prisoners within the system. Simply put; some people need to die. The system recognises this fact and thus a mechanism exists for putting these dangerous murderers to death. I agree that it doesn't put much of a dent in the real world of crime; to do so we'd have to be putting many hundreds to death every year. It does have a largely symbolic societal effect in that it creates the appearance that the judicial system is protecting us. "Eye for an eye" and all that...

As for me I'd like to see people who are truly sorry and remorseful make amends and have their death sentences commuted. Tookie; if he had shown such remorse; would have been a good candidate for this. Perhaps the Governator would have been merciful if he had? OTOH I think some rapists and all child rapists/murderers should be on death row. I'd have a system in place where a Tookie Williams execution could be bumped backward in favor of a swifter execution for a John Couey.

-z
 
Also a person incarcerated for life may escape and harm someone. Certainly such a person would have little incentive to refrain from harming anyone. Then there are crimes against other prisoners within the system.

How is the death penalty effective in this respect when it takes 20+ years to kill one of the most dangerous, physically violent criminals imaginable? If Tookie was going to escape or kill someone while in jail, he'd have done it already by the time he was executed.

The only valid argument I can see for the death penalty is to give the friends and relatives of the victim closure - they know the bastard that topped their loved one will never draw breath again. Personally, I'd balance this against the danger of getting it wrong and come out against the death penalty, but I'm still glad Schwartzenneger didn't give Williams a reprieve.
 
Santa's dual answer: Capital punishment is the only government policy where the intended end result is death. That end result is only intended for a minute segment of the population, those who commit crimes warranting the death penalty. Other goverment policies or actions, while they may result in the death of innocent people, are not intended to result in death. If the goverment must execute its citizens, then it needs to be damn sure it is executing the right ones. In a situation where absolute guilt cannot be discerned, no room is left to rectify the situation if you execute the convicted. Death cannot be undone. A life sentence can. No, years lost cannot be given back, but freedom can be restored. No part of the death penalty can be corrected once implemented. We hold death as the ultimate punishment, yet we do not require ultimate proof. We only require proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Dear Santa,

I think your two cents are worth a whole lot more than most people continuing this argument will admit. You have found the perfect median for me to agree and to still throw in my last two cents in the fray.

We all talk about government pork barrels and the price of an innocent life, this is supposedly a Democratic country, can't we express our similar concerns regarding the execution of an innocent man?

I've mentioned the fact that technology has resulted in the release (after a wasted life) of many death row inmates, and that's a good thing (sort of). Innocent men have very definitely been put to death (and maybe even while Bush was governor of the state with the dubious honor of MOST executions), the death penalty is handed out unevenly with regards to race, and (as we all know) the more expensive your lawyer, the more likely you'll get off. These are all bad things. It certainly might not help Tookie if we devote more funds to sciences that could ensure guilt or deny guilt in 99.9999% of cases.

For the remainder, I feel they are likely too close to the crime to weasel their way out of guilt. Which brings me to my two cents. I have seen too many good innocent people die violent deaths. My stint in the military, a stint in a hospital ER and later working with GIs as a defense contractor and occasional visit to the VA hospital have left me valuing life in (apparently) a different way than most. My point is, I value innocent life to the point that I would step in-between you and a raging Tookie if it were our situation. Tookie would have deserved to die that night, and he certainly deserved to die 25 years later.

Bob Kark (and others) have said that this argument is much like guns, Bush, abortion, and other things that people are passionate about - we all have our points, and I personally respect everyone's opinion, but we'll never change each other's mind. Perhaps we should all push for a pork barrel that would help ensure that no one is put to death without undeniable, irrefutable, insurmountable evidence.
 
Thank you for bringing that report to my attention. It sure was long...but quite an interesting peek into the world of the statastician. :confused:

One of my best debate tactics - link to an mind-numbing article that makes your opponent's eyes cross, rendering them incapable of replying. ;)

Also a person incarcerated for life may escape and harm someone. Certainly such a person would have little incentive to refrain from harming anyone. Then there are crimes against other prisoners within the system.

It does have a largely symbolic societal effect in that it creates the appearance that the judicial system is protecting us. "Eye for an eye" and all that...

So, basically, you position is: the threat of a "lifer" escaping prison and harming (killing?) people, OR a "lifer" harming (killing?) other inmates, AND the symbolic effect capital punishment has on a society (debatable, by the way, but let's put that aside for now) OUTWEIGHS the prospect that innocent people have or would have been killed due to capital punishment? Forgive me for the capitalization, I only did it to emphasize the operators and hopefully clarify the logic behind it.

As for me I'd like to see people who are truly sorry and remorseful make amends and have their death sentences commuted.

This seems rather contrary to the idea of the death penalty. I always thought the basic idea behind it is that there are some crimes so heinous that no amount of remorse or amends can make up for it.
 
Sorry to quote myself but where is the logic behind the death penalty? I have not seen a good example of why this is better than life in prison.

... snip ...

Perhaps we should keep score.
***********************
Against Capital Punishment:

Logical:
- more expensive than life imprisonment
- no evidence that it is a deterrent
- likelihood of innocents being executed

Emotional:
- state sanctioned killing of its citizens is barbaric


Pro Capital Punishment:

Logical:
- frees up a prison bed
-

Emotional:
- revenge
- prison is too easy

*********************

... snip ....

Feel free to add to my list above.

I'm against the death penalty also. But to be fair I can think of another item to add to the Pro-Capital Punishment list:
  • To help keep control within the prisons.
Per the media, prisoners are constantly beating, raping and occasionally killing each other within prison walls, and occasionally attacking guards also.

According to the LA County's response to Tookie Williams' request for clemency (http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf, a 57 page PDF file that Manny found and linked to earlier in this thread way back on page 1) Williams threw dangerous chemicals at guards' faces while he was in prison three times (see pages 40 and 41 of the LA pdf file). At least one guard got chemical burns and required medical treatment.

I suppose this goes under the logical heading, although it's totally illogical to me why there isn't better control over the prison system. I don't think there's any excuse for it.
 
One of my best debate tactics - link to an mind-numbing article that makes your opponent's eyes cross, rendering them incapable of replying. ;)

I'm catching on...I shall have to steal that one... ;)

So, basically, you position is: the threat of a "lifer" escaping prison and harming (killing?) people, OR a "lifer" harming (killing?) other inmates, AND the symbolic effect capital punishment has on a society (debatable, by the way, but let's put that aside for now) OUTWEIGHS the prospect that innocent people have or would have been killed due to capital punishment? Forgive me for the capitalization, I only did it to emphasize the operators and hopefully clarify the logic behind it.

Yes; but only because it involves a perceived benefit for the many (society) balanced against the detriment to the very few ("innocent" individuals) who would pay the ultimate price by treachery, accident, or simply foul luck. It is society at large and not me personally who have decided this you know...I'm just recognising it as a largely symbolic action that is resonate with the wishes of the people. As such it has enough intrinsic merit as public spectacle to continue in spite of it's inherrent dangers.

This seems rather contrary to the idea of the death penalty. I always thought the basic idea behind it is that there are some crimes so heinous that no amount of remorse or amends can make up for it.

Yes; but in the common sense view that I would support; some crimes are more heinous than others. I believe that there is a built-in relief valve for "remorse or amends" that may not be easily codified in law. It's called the Governor's power to commute or pardon.

-z
 
In case anybody reading way back here on page 5 is still interested in hearing about the Tookster and his case, here are some pictures and commentary from the moonbat vigil at his execution.
Interesting the way that the pro-death penalty person was shouted down and escorted out.

I thought...those on the left really LIKED free speech? :eek:
(Actually, I'm not that naive. I'm very familiar with the tactics of the far left to shout-down speech they don't agree with. The far-right does it too, so I'm not coming down only on one side here.)
 
Interesting the way that the pro-death penalty person was shouted down and escorted out.

That's quite a link, thanks Freakshow. You know, mixing politics is like mixing drinks. It should be left to professionals. The anti-dp crowd would have garnered a lot more support if they'd stuck to the two issues at hand (Clemency for Tookie and the DP in general), instead of mixing it up with, well, all that word salad.
 
Clearly a violation of the eighth amendment.


Surely, you jest...

25booze.jpg




;)
Apart from those exuberent young chaps in the photo, obviously. Still, they tend to save society the trouble by killing each other eventually, or themselves with a non- stop diet of Ginsters pasties and Carlsberg.
 
Interesting the way that the pro-death penalty person was shouted down and escorted out.

I thought...those on the left really LIKED free speech? :eek:
(Actually, I'm not that naive. I'm very familiar with the tactics of the far left to shout-down speech they don't agree with. The far-right does it too, so I'm not coming down only on one side here.)

An extremist is an extremist is an extremist.
 
Yes; but only because it involves a perceived benefit for the many (society) balanced against the detriment to the very few ("innocent" individuals) who would pay the ultimate price by treachery, accident, or simply foul luck. It is society at large and not me personally who have decided this you know...I'm just recognising it as a largely symbolic action that is resonate with the wishes of the people. As such it has enough intrinsic merit as public spectacle to continue in spite of it's inherrent dangers.

-z

From my point of view, no amount of perceived benefit for a portion (or even a majority) of people is worth the killing of an innocent few. I guess then it's a matter of educating people about the false perceptions of capital punishment so that changes can be made.
 
From my point of view, no amount of perceived benefit for a portion (or even a majority) of people is worth the killing of an innocent few. I guess then it's a matter of educating people about the false perceptions of capital punishment so that changes can be made.

I think that if you analyze this closely enough you'll find it to be an absurd position. No matter what people do, with regard to the death penalty or just about anything else, innocent people are going to die. Saying "Take the route where innocent people don't die" doesn't make sense because that route never exists.

That's not to say that there aren't good arguments against the death penalty. There are.
 
I think that if you analyze this closely enough you'll find it to be an absurd position. No matter what people do, with regard to the death penalty or just about anything else, innocent people are going to die. Saying "Take the route where innocent people don't die" doesn't make sense because that route never exists.

You're making excuses. In this case, the route to keep innocent people from being killed does exist.
 
I think that if you analyze this closely enough you'll find it to be an absurd position. No matter what people do, with regard to the death penalty or just about anything else, innocent people are going to die. Saying "Take the route where innocent people don't die" doesn't make sense because that route never exists.

That's not to say that there aren't good arguments against the death penalty. There are.

Just because it isn't possible to prevent all innocent deaths doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. Everyone's better off for it.
 

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