Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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JoeMorgue said:
LondonJohn is probably learning more toward the image of a transperson who is passing as their identified gender so perfectly there's no reason, indeed no way, to question it. I'd wager Emily's Cat is not.
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I've said several times that for toilets, and even for changing rooms, if you're even reasonably passing, nobody's going to challenge your presence. And I think that's fine. Just don't go waggling your twig & giggle berries or your melons around, because people are going to notice that.

There are only a few cases where I think the presence of a functional penis, in and of itself, is a disqualification. And even then, in the case of prisons, I could see an argument for case-by-case evaluations.

If a male-bodied person looks like a bearded lumberjack in a dress, then she should use the mens facilities.

It really doesn't seem like it's all that much to ask that people show some modicum of self-awareness and consideration for other people.
 
LondonJohn said:
Hmm really? Because here's Emily's Cat talking about how trans women with penises should not be allowed into women-only spaces:
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And that is full-on transparently disingenuous bad-faith posting by you.

You've been claiming that I opposed anyone with a penis from using women's BATHROOMS. Then you substitute posts by me referring to things that are NOT bathrooms - like goddamned prison wards!
 
Boudicca90 said:
I don't know what other direction you are taking my views, but I want male-free spaces to continue to be male-free. The distinction is no matter what gross term you decide to call biological females to separate them from us, it doesn't make us male.
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Okay, it really seems you and I are not using the words "male" and "female" to mean remotely the same things. Accordingly, I'll try again.

I think the operative question is whether uterine ovarians ought to be allowed to have some spaces to themselves, free from bepenised testiculators.
 
Emily's Cat said:
In general I really don't care much about bathrooms, whether public or in schools. Changing rooms where people are going to be naked are a different issue.
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Where i see the difference relates to the idea of using the bathroom where that random observer will think you belong.

In a theater, that's based on how you are dressed or made up and how close you are to "passing", but no one can "pass" in a high school where everyone in the bathroom knows who you are.

And, related to several other recent posts, it's not something I see as a central issue, and I don't have a really strong opinion about it. For me, I go back to the general principle that it mostly depends on the opinions of the other people in the bathroom. If they are ok with his or her presence, then so am I, but if they aren't, I think that if the school offers the transperson access to the faculty restroom, they really ought to take it.

(As an aside, this is a situation where I have actually read about the boys complaining about the transboy in their midst. There was a story some months back, pre-pandemic, or possibly last year, about a group of boys who didn't want the transboy in their bathroom, so they staged a protest that involve the boys invading the girls' bathroom. The girls weren't so keen on that form of protest, and one of the girls punched a boy in the face. The girl who threw the punch was suspended, but she received high praise from many in the community.)
 
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LondonJohn said:
I thought some people never expressed extreme exasperation in a disparaging or demeaning style? Or has the self-appointed rule on this one changed now as well...?
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At some point in pages and pages of being insulted, dismissed, and called names... someone straight up lying about my positions will actually cause me to get angry.

So... congratulations on proving that I'm human I guess? Is that a feather in your cap? You in some points?
 
Boudicca90 said:
Yep, when I stated that based on her views of "penises shouldn't be allowed in women's facilities" that I shouldn't be allowed to enter restrooms, locker rooms, spas, etc. when I have for a few years now with no problem, she backtracked. Despite having a penis and having no intention right now of getting rid of it, she then clarified that as long as I look like I belong in there, then it is fine for me to be in there.

So Emily, which is it? How much importance do you place on such a trivial matter when it comes to gender?

Also there are plenty of people who unfortunately can't pass no matter how hard they try, or don't have the resources to successfully transition, should they be barred because they don't meet her personal definition of a woman?
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I know.

Apparently Emily's Cat is now attempting to argue a position where

a) the risk to cis women of being sexually attacked by trans women with penises in (say) a typically well-lit sports centre changing room is sufficiently high (in her view) that trans women with penises should be excluded on that basis from using the women's changing rooms in sports centres

yet

b) the risk to cis women of being sexually attacked by trans women with penises in (say) a typically dimly-lit nightclub toilet at 1am must (in her view) be lower than in example (a) - since she now says that there's no problem (in her view) with trans women with penises being allowed to use (eg) the women's toilets in nightclubs at 1am......
 
Emily's Cat said:
At some point in pages and pages of being insulted, dismissed, and called names... someone straight up lying about my positions will actually cause me to get angry.

So... congratulations on proving that I'm human I guess? Is that a feather in your cap? You in some points?
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No. Just an observation related to glass houses and stones. That's all.
 
d4m10n said:
Okay, it really seems you and I are not using the words "male" and "female" to mean remotely the same things. Accordingly, I'll try again.

I think the operative question is whether uterine ovarians ought to be allowed to have some spaces to themselves, free from bepenised testiculators.
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Heh. Just when I thought we'd finally settled on (wo)man/(fe)male to distinguish gender/sex, and we could advance the discussion without having to keep debating this terminology, Boudicca throws a monkey wrench in.

Since I do think the distinction is important, and since I do think the above terminology is a good solution, I'm going to keep using the terms, and I'm going to keep disagreeing with Boudicca when she insists that she's female.

I get that she thinks sex isn't (or shouldn't be) important to gender identity. But other people do think it's important. Not only that, but I think it's important not just to gender identity but to medical and scientific accuracy.

In terms of the thread title: Is a transwoman a woman? Sure, in pretty much every scenario where the social construct of gender matters, and the biological facts do not. But in scenarios where the biological facts matter... No they're not. Put it another way: Transwomen are women, but they're not females.
 
Boudicca90 said:
You seem to have some stereotypes of us that I wonder if Emily also has.

I have been on HRT for over 3 years now starting when I was 32. I don't have broad shoulders, I never had a visible Adam's Apple, I NEVER had a deep voice (in fact, I would often be misgendered even before I transitioned because of my voice because I sounded like a girl even when I was a "guy"). I am 5'8", so a little on the tall side for a woman but not too tall, and assuming that cargo load thing has to do with strength, it has also decreased to more normally "female-levels" after all this time.

Most transwomen are like me, and try to "pass" and integrate ourselves as much as possible, even though it might not be enough for some people. Unfortunately society spends so much effort to make sure we pass and fit some "criteria" that those who don't or can't get ostracized, and it shouldn't be like that.
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I don't even know where to start here, because there appears to be a genuine failure to make a connection involved.

You pass. You've said you've been passing for some time, you're slight of frame (not bulky). In addition, you're courteous and aware of yourself when you're in private spaces.

You are not the problem. People like you are not the problem. I have no particular objection to you (with a few minor exceptions regarding shortlists etc).

The problem I have is that you have taken the position that I must extend the same responses that I would to you - a transwoman who passes fairly well and is reasonably conscientious about still being physically intact - to any male-bodied person who self-declares themselves to be a woman, regardless of whether they pass at all.

Can you understand where I'm coming from on this? You've undergone HRT, you've made an effort to pass, and you're considerate of other women in private spaces.

Not all transgender people look or act like you do.

Many transwomen cannot pass at all. Many don't even really try to pass. Many are condescending and treat females poorly. Many threaten females with being raped by barbed-wire covered baseball bats, or being raped to death and fed to crows, or being beaten into submission.

You say you want a male-free space as well. Alright - I will rescind my discussion of biology. You can enter my female spaces.

Go look through the comments made by some of those self-declared transwomen... self-declared, male-bodied people who identify as women.

Do you want to be obligated to let them into our spaces solely on the basis of them declaring that they are women? Would you be comfortable sharing private space where you're vulnerable and naked with someone who feels no hesitation about threatening women with rape? Someone who harasses and abuses lesbians because they don't want to have sex with a penis?
 
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Boudicca90 said:
I'm not really sure what a "sincerity test" would look like, especially in the context of locker rooms. But shelters are a good example, it should be left up to the administrators to judge. As long as it's not discriminatory towards us in general, in fine with it.

Places like shelters definitely need some enhanced scrutiny, but it shouldn't be codified into law. Shelters should have the leeway to make their own decisions, but not ban us outright.
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You know, your position and mine are not very far apart when it comes to policy. Worded differently, perhaps? I say that shelters shouldn't be obligated to accept self-declared transwomen solely on the basis of their declaration. Shelters should be allowed to make their own decisions, on a case by case basis, because many transwomen really do need support and shelter, and they should be able to find a place to help them. But those shelters also need to balance the needs and well-being of the female residents. Thus, they need to have the ability to deny access if they deem it appropriate.

I don't think that's different from your position in any meaningful way, is it?
 
Emily's Cat said:
I don't even know where to start here, because there appears to be a genuine failure to make a connection involved.

You pass. You've said you've been passing for some time, you're slight of frame (not bulky). In addition, you're courteous and aware of yourself when you're in private spaces.

You are not the problem. People like you are not the problem. I have no particular objection to you (with a few minor exceptions regarding shortlists etc).

The problem I have is that you have taken the position that I must extend the same responses that I would to you - a transwoman who passes fairly well and is reasonably conscientious about still being physically intact - to any male-bodied person who self-declares themselves to be a woman, regardless of whether they pass at all.

Can you understand where I'm coming from on this? You've undergone HRT, you've made an effort to pass, and you're considerate of other women in private spaces.

Not all transgender people look or act like you do.

Many transwomen cannot pass at all. Many don't even really try to pass. Many are condescending and treat females poorly. Many threaten females with being raped by barbed-wire covered baseball bats, or being raped to death and fed to crows, or being beaten into submission.

You say you want a male-free space as well. Alright - I will rescind my discussion of biology. You can enter my female spaces.

Go look through the comments made by some of those self-declared transwomen... self-declared, male-bodied people who identify as women.

Do you want to be obligated to let them into our spaces solely on the basis of them declaring that they are women? Would you be comfortable sharing private space where you're vulnerable and naked with someone who feels no hesitation about threatening women with rape? Someone who harasses and abuses lesbians because they don't want to have sex with a penis?
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Whee. Shall we play with that strawman?
 
LondonJohn said:
Yeah.....but then there's this (my bolding):



http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13134284#post13134284



LERN2RGEW!!

Oh I like that erm, "literary device"! I want to steal it and use it - I'm hoping it'll make me seem more edgy and cool :thumbsup:
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None of that is me saying that males should never be allowed in women's bathrooms. So... way to miss context?

Honestly, John, do you even actually read my posts with an intent to comprehend them?
 
abaddon said:
By being a girl? Why do you find that personally threatening? I do not understand that position.
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Earlier in the thread there was a lot of back and forth about terminology.

We'd more or less settled on the following distinction:

"Male" and "female" refer to biological sex. The chromosomes you're born with, the genitalia and organs that emerge from that genetic binary, etc. Things doctors need to know when triaging your symptoms. Things pro sports organizers need to know when setting up leagues and divisions in their sports. Stuff like that.

"Man" and "woman" refer to the social constructs of gender. How you perceive yourself. How you want others to perceive you. Which gender-segregated spaces you should get access to. Stuff like that.

In the past couple days, Boudicca has started asserting that (a) she's not just a woman, she's also female and that (b) biological sex is not actually important to gender identity (or sexual identity? it's hard to tell, because she's erasing the distinction).

I don't find it personally threatening, but I do find it irrational, unscientific, and gratuitously obnoxious.
 
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