Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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You asked a question and I clarified how I felt. You seem to have an issue with what I said and that's on you.

Not so much an issue with it, more like finding it intriguing. To be clear, not finding it intriguing how you feel (I don't really care about that, let alone to the extent of asking a question about it) but what you think. Specifically about the use of violent threats against people who don't consider a particular proposition true.

I don't really care enough about any of that nonsense to defend it or detract it. I personally am not a violent person in nature (in fact I'm too much of a pushover in real life), so I don't agree with many of the things said in those posts. The line is wherever you want it to be, I guess.

But you claim to speak for transwomen in general (the "us" you're always referring to) so even if you are personally not a violent person in nature it's still a relevant question regarding that, apparently not insignificant, number of you who are, and who are willing to violently threaten those people who refuse to give them the special lower standards they believe themselves to be entitled to.
 
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Do you even understand why female prisoners might find this law to be a problem? Do you even care?



Maybe you can start by outlining precisely the risks (as you see them, pf course) to cis women prisoners of having trans women prisoners sharing the same cell block


(I am making a starting presumption myself that a) no cis woman prisoner would ever be made to share a cell with a trans woman prisoner, and b) trans women prisoners would be required to shower and wash separately from cis women prisoners)
 
Typical of TERF ideology, using your sexism against men against us transgender women. "You are all violent, perverted men!" Blah, blah, blah.

I've noticed it is a pattern and in my view the core of Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism. Cisgender women using their hate and/or fear of men and transferring that onto us transgender women. Much like JK Rowling used her sexual assault experiences to paint us all as threats, I see the same thing among TERFs in general.

That is what is so insidious about your particular brand of transphobia, you can get more sympathy for your views versus a man who hates us just because we are "freaks".

I'm not sexist against men. I do, however, understand and accept that females are the victims of 90% of sexual crimes, and that 98% of sexual crimes are perpetrated by males. I do, however, understand that on average, males are a threat to females. As you so kindly pointed out previously... there's nothing we can do about it. Males are bigger, stronger, and more aggressive than females.

I don't think you're a freak. I think you're a person with some genuine distress and anxiety. I'm not at all transphobic, nor do I have any hatred for transgendered people. I certainly don't wish any ill on transgendered people in general - and I can't even sympathize with anyone who wishes harm and violence upon transgender people.

I also don't dismiss or disregard your concerns. I don't tell you that you're being hysterical or that you're imagining risks that don't exist. I don't call you names. I don't insult you. I don't demean you and paint you as being worthless or as a bad person.

Can you say the same with respect to females?
 
It's certainly not rare in the UK either, so I don't think this is some uniquely US thing.
It does seem to be uniquely a property of political systems in which in which every political issue is seen as completely binary and zero-sum, either you're with us or against us. That is true of both the UK and the US, but not true in many other countries.

If in the Netherlands two lobbying groups have some disagreement, organising protests against each other isn't the first thing they'll do. The first thing they'll do is set up talks and try to find common ground. That's what I mean with a consensus democracy. In the Netherlands it is not uncommon for arch-conservative Muslim organisations and gay right organisations to send out mutual press statements about their consensus on each others' rights. If that's possible, I am sure feminist organisations and transgender organisations should be able to manage.
 
Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ. Is it that hard to actually read what I post, rather than re-inventing it in your head?



Bit strong, isn't it (by certain self-declared "rules")?

And you seem now to be splitting hairs around the definition of "penis" - the post of yours which you quoted makes your position clear wrt actual biologically-real penises (which, I'm suspecting, is what most people would think the word "penis" refers to...) - it's only artificial, grafted-on penises for trans men that you apparently have no problem with.
 
I don't really care enough about any of that nonsense to defend it or detract it.

Can you perhaps empathize with females on this topic? Can you understand that for thousands of years, females have been subjected to that treatment in reality?

Why on earth would you expect females to accept you as no different from us, when you simultaneously don't see anything wrong with wishes for violence against females being made by males?
 
When you disagree with someone it helps to have a go-to term to be able to dehumanize them and dismiss their positions without the hassle of addressing them logically.

And I still thought you were done with "you people" here ...

The most interesting observation I have is that the dehumanization and dismissal seems to be one-directional. Boudicca90 is observably more polite and respectful toward male posters who disagree with her. She is considerably less civil toward female posters. Female posters who disagree with her are the only ones who are consistently dismissed and dehumanized.
 
I think the standard should be how it is, you show your drivers license to sign up and they use the gender listed. But you shouldn't have to provide medical corroboration to the DMV to get the gender marker on your license changed. So you especially shouldn't have to for a gym.

And yes, I do think cismen should be barred from the women's room and ciswomen should be barred from the men's. Just like it has always been. I know I wouldn't feel comfortable with someone who looks 100% male in the women's restroom, regardless of what they have in their pants.
And how, exactly, does one tell the difference? How does a person tell the difference between a cisman and a transwoman?

This idea that men are just going to say they are women to infiltrate women's restrooms is a fallacy. I'm not saying it wouldn't ever happen, but the risk is miniscule.
Why? Why do you believe that you are the determinant of what is and is not a risk to females? Why do you feel that the concerns and risks expressed by females are of no account, and that only your view of what represents an acceptable risk to females should be considered?

And to emphasize a very common female experience:

Female: I don't like X, it is a problem and a concern to me.
Male: Get over it, it's not that big a deal.
Female: It's a big deal to me and other females like me.
Male: You're overreacting, quit being hysterical.
Female: I'm not overreacting. This isn't a problem that you face as a male, it is a problem that I face as a female. It's a legitimate problem for me.
Male: Well, I think it's just a minor problem. Let's talk about something else...
 
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Again, because you are not surrendering any rights, privacy, safety, or dignity to us. I'm sorry you feel that way, but it is just not true.

Transpeople gaining rights doesn't take them away from you, no matter how much you think we are.

I don't see how you can say it is objectively true or objectively false.

You could argue safety objectively, by citing statistics about reported victimization with or without transgender access.

"Rights", is a philosophical concept too deep to get into here.

"Dignity" is very subjective.

But, privacy?

Would you agree that if I, a cis-male, went into the women's locker room at Planet Fitness that I would be invading the privacy of the women in that locker room? I think the answer is yes, don't you? I'm going to assume that's the answer.

And I think that if a cis-woman goes into the women's locker room and uses it in the normal fashion, she is not invading the privacy of the other women in the locker room, and I assume you agree.

So now, we differ on whether a trans-woman entering that space is or is not invading the privacy of the women in the locker room. Is the trans woman more like the cis-woman, or more like the cis-man.

I don't have an objective answer to that question, or to the underlying question that caused me to ask it? I can't define "more like". You say she is not surrendering any privacy, but how can you say that objectively? if you accept the concept of invasion of privacy, and agree that a cis-man would be invading the privacy, how can you say, other than by bare assertion, that a trans-woman is not invading the privacy of the women.

You might say that I am doing exactly the same thing, by asserting that the trans-woman is invading the women's privacy, and I can't argue that you are objectively wrong. However, I can say two things about the situation. My subjective evaluation that her privacy is being invaded is based on the theory that a man watching a woman undress is invading her privacy. In order to decide whether a given individual is invading her privacy, then, it is sufficient to show that the individual is a man. In order to do that, I have to have a definition of "man". As it turns out, I do have a definition of "man", and by that definition, a trans-woman is a man. is there some alternative definition that would make the transwoman not a man?

We've been over this before, of course, dozens of times in this thread and its predecessors. All the proposed definitions are circular. The closest anyone ever came was saying that "woman" was anyone who filled society's female gender role. Depending on how deep you dive into it, that is either a circular definition, and therefore meaningless, or it is an assertion that "man" or "woman" is defined based entirely on some combination of individual behavior plus societal expectations of behavior, which is a proposition I don't think anyone will defend.

The second comment I will have is that while I cannot objectively state that privacy is being invaded without some degree of bare assertion, what I will say is that as long as the majority of women feel like their privacy is being invaded, then their privacy is being invaded. It's subjective, based on the feelings of the women, but if I cannot come up with an objective definition of "invasion of privacy", I can still say that I will consider it having occurred as long as the expectations of privacy are being violated, and in the case of transwomen in the locker rooms, they clearly are, at least until expectations are modified.
 
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I'm not sexist against men. I do, however, understand and accept that females are the victims of 90% of sexual crimes, and that 98% of sexual crimes are perpetrated by males. I do, however, understand that on average, males are a threat to females. As you so kindly pointed out previously... there's nothing we can do about it. Males are bigger, stronger, and more aggressive than females.

I don't think you're a freak. I think you're a person with some genuine distress and anxiety. I'm not at all transphobic, nor do I have any hatred for transgendered people. I certainly don't wish any ill on transgendered people in general - and I can't even sympathize with anyone who wishes harm and violence upon transgender people.

I also don't dismiss or disregard your concerns. I don't tell you that you're being hysterical or that you're imagining risks that don't exist. I don't call you names. I don't insult you. I don't demean you and paint you as being worthless or as a bad person.

Can you say the same with respect to females?

What you say and how you act towards us and treat us as are two different things.

And yes, I can absolutely say that about females (of which I am included). When I insult TERFs and transphobes, I'm not insulting all women, just those women (and men) with those views.

You don't speak for all cisgender women just like I don't speak for all transgender women.
 
The most interesting observation I have is that the dehumanization and dismissal seems to be one-directional. Boudicca90 is observably more polite and respectful toward male posters who disagree with her. She is considerably less civil toward female posters. Female posters who disagree with her are the only ones who are consistently dismissed and dehumanized.



Nope, not what I see at all. I see Boudicca90 being less polite and less respectful to those posters who appear to have the most bigoted and entrenched positions against gender dysphoria (and the most bigoted and entrenched opposition to a real-world recognition of transgender identity).

Irrespective of the (assumed) biological sex - or gender identity - of the poster.


Obviously if you can show convincing proof of your argument, then I'll be happy to reconsider my observation.
 
The most interesting observation I have is that the dehumanization and dismissal seems to be one-directional. Boudicca90 is observably more polite and respectful toward male posters who disagree with her. She is considerably less civil toward female posters. Female posters who disagree with her are the only ones who are consistently dismissed and dehumanized.

Yeah, I had to really drag it out of her before she finally called me a TERF too, and I've hardly been respectful towards her.
 
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Can you perhaps empathize with females on this topic? Can you understand that for thousands of years, females have been subjected to that treatment in reality?

Why on earth would you expect females to accept you as no different from us, when you simultaneously don't see anything wrong with wishes for violence against females being made by males?

Looking at the posts again, it's from a wide variety of people of all different genders. These aren't wishes of violence against females by males, they are wishes of violence against TERFs by men and women of all kinds, trans and cis, probably some enbies too.
 
Again, because you are not surrendering any rights, privacy, safety, or dignity to us. I'm sorry you feel that way, but it is just not true.

Transpeople gaining rights doesn't take them away from you, no matter how much you think we are.

Transgender Activists are asking us to surrender the right to female-only spaces.
Transgender Activists are asking us to surrender our privacy from males.
Transgender Activists are asking us to be denied the right to ask for cisgender female practitioners to perform intimate procedures on female patients.
Transgender Activists are asking that the word "women" be replaced by dehumanizing reductions to reproductive capacity like "menstruators" and "cervix havers" and "people with uteruses" in materials relevant to women's health.
Transgender Activists are asking that females relinquish short-list positions and recognitions for female honors to male people who identify as women.
Transgender Activists are asking that females open their sex-segregated sporting events to male-bodied people.
Transgender Activists are lobbying to replace sex-based protections in civil rights with gender identity protections instead, which effectively removes sex as a protected category.

Transgender Activists are demanding that females surrender all of those things, not on the basis of a genuine medical condition diagnosed by an impartial doctor providing necessary medical care and treatment... but on the basis of self-declaration alone.

But females aren't giving up anything at all. Nope, nothing important anyway. I'm sure we hysterical females are just overreacting.
 
What you say and how you act towards us and treat us as are two different things.

And yes, I can absolutely say that about females (of which I am included).

You lost me. If you'd said you are included in "women", I'd have understood. But the whole point of transwomanhood is that you're *not* included in "females".
 
You consider the fears and concerns of females to be hysterical exaggerations or completely made up.
I consider the fears and concerns mostly hysterical exaggerations or completely made up... by men. To keep women down. It is completely in the interest of the patriarchy for women to be afraid. I consider those fears to be internalised oppression.

Why should females be expected to surrender their rights and their privacy and their safety, and subjugate their dignity, to any male-born person who declares themselves to be a woman?
They shouldn't. Those "male-born persons who declare themselves to be women" don't ask them to. Extending their rights and their privacy and their safety, and their dignity to "male-born persons who declare themselves to be women" doesn't mean surrendering them.

Where women (of all biological sexes) lack rights, privacy, safety or dignity, they should demand rights, privacy, safety or dignity. Not deny them to others, and not accept mere 'stick figures with skirts' on doors as a replacement.
 
What you say and how you act towards us and treat us as are two different things.

And yes, I can absolutely say that about females (of which I am included). When I insult TERFs and transphobes, I'm not insulting all women, just those women (and men) with those views.

You don't speak for all cisgender women just like I don't speak for all transgender women.

And so it begins again.

No you aren't. I would stick with the "women" thing.
 
You lost me. If you'd said you are included in "women", I'd have understood. But the whole point of transwomanhood is that you're *not* included in "females".

If she meant "female" as in "genetically XX" then true, I wouldn't be included. But I took her use of female as synonymous with woman.

As I stated before, I don't think biological sex is very important to begin with and if that's what she meant, it would have been helpful to clarify.

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Edited to remove material sent to AAH
 
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