caveman1917
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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4
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caveman1917
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And Jews are from space.
Seriously though, it boggles me why you would choose to argue your claims so badly. Consider your recent claim that there are no incidents of sexual assault of female prison staff by transgender inmates. You clearly had the case, all you had to do was just provide the primary source - in this case the written answer by the DOJ in parliament. But no, you chose to provide second-hand commentary from in-group sources instead. Remember that whole discussion about how you should use primary sources rather than secondary sources, when you were doing your cultish thing about JKR?
Now, I can understand why you would need to argue some claims badly (because you can't argue them properly) but it boggles me why you would choose to argue some claims badly even when you can argue them properly. Would've saved everyone (meaning me, of course) the trouble of looking up the primary source.
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It's not clear whether or not the original claim was that the alleged crimes were recorded as being committed by a transgender inmate. I believe that if transwoman have legally changed gender any offences in prison will be recorded as offences committed by a female (not sure if this is the case in Scotland, I'm guessing Rolfe will know). The opening statement in the article does say self-identifying, but there are other issues in relation to those self-identifying within the body of the article, so it could just be careless wording.
I know that there were issues raised with crimes being recorded based on self-identified gender but I don't know if this applies to offences within prisons.
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caveman1917
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So how would the Tory politician know? His nether regions told him so?
No it doesn't, as you could easily have determined from the very same answer by the fact that there are some recorded instances of transgender inmates sexually assaulting female inmates being recorded separately, there are just no cases of any of them assaulting female staff.
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Possibly, there isn't enough information in the source to know. If this was being claimed as something on official record it seems strange to report it as a 'shocking claim' as it would almost certainly have received attention earlier.
That may depend on whether or not they have legal recognition of change of gender, and how offences by those self-identifying as transgender are recorded, (I have encountered various sources saying there is no systematic recording of self-identified transgender status, and that any such stats are therefore very difficult to verify). Again I don't know about Scotland specifically.
caveman1917
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You're of course free to demonstrate that incidents exist which aren't accurately being recorded but I'm not sure how you'd even begin. There being no such instances is also consistent with there being 5 out of 122 instances against female inmates, assuming that staff in general is assaulted at a rate at least 5x less than inmates in general. Transgender inmates seem to be slightly overrepresented, responsible for about 4% of assaults while making up about 3% of the population, but the sample here is small so you can't really draw conclusions. It all seems consistent with there not having been sexual assaults of female prison staff by transgender inmates, though.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Transgender inmates are 3% of the prison population? That seems rather high, doesn't it? Is that figure reliable?
caveman1917
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I took it from 125 transgender prisoners in female prison vs 4000 total female prison population. It's not all that high, indeed it's an underestimate, if you consider that the total male prison population is about 76000.
No, as it excludes some cases (although those are likely rare). Neither should the 4% from the 5 out of 122 assaults be considered reliable, the sample is simply too small to draw conclusions.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
It's high when you compare it to the percentage of transgender people in the population as a whole, though.
caveman1917
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125/76000 is about 0.15% which seems consistent with estimates for the population as a whole.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
So, yeah, pretty much this.
I am female myself, and I know quite a few females, many very close. And when people start talking about using what little progress females have made that allow them to make their lives less disadvantaged and ****** than they already are, I get a bit touchy too.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Holy cow. Go do some resesarch on this and come back to me. Tell me how nobody supports those bullies. Because as far as I can tell, they get a LOT of support from transgender and transallies. FFS, Long Chu's insultingly misogynistic book gets lauded by transwomen as being a wonderful breakthrough and oh so true! So yeah, unless the trans community is actually speaking out and telling people like that to get screwed, as long as a surprising amount of transgender and transallies are supporting crap like that and holding it up as a wonderful thing... as long as a large proportion of transgender people keep insisting that Rachel McKinnon is perfectly fine and has no physical advantages, and that her views are representative of transgender people everywhere... I'm a bit less than inclined to take your personal view that they are really just a couple of outliers that nobody likes.
Fallon Fox gets held up as a wonderful "win" for transwomen, and her blatantly misogynistic views and her slavering desire to hurt females specifically gets swept under the rug. Jenner gets held up as a fantastic icon of bravery and progress, and the fact that they view the hardest thing about being a woman as "figuring out what to wear" and how incredibly denigrating that is to females... well, that's not a big deal. Karen White gets moved into a female ward in a prison because they declare that they feel like a woman on the inside and put on a wig and fake tits... and well, that's as it should be, it's just the recognition that transwomen are due to affirm their feelings... and the fact that they were imprisoned for raping females, well, that's not sufficient reason to "deny her existence" - she still need to be allowed to live with the females, because that's how she feels... you know, we'll only think about the safety of actual real women after "she" rapes a few of them. No big deal - all in the name of progress for people with penises.
A bunch of pre-teen and teenage females wanting to shower after swimming? Well, they're just a bunch of bigots for not wanting penises in their presence while those underage females are naked. Their complaints and their discomfort and their privacy doesn't matter - if they don't like it, they can go elsewhere, because the "woman" with a dick and balls who wants to be there, well, her personal internal feeling of having her penis validated as a female organ is far more important than those actual females are. They're just bigots, and nobody should care about them.
We'll just keep completely ignoring the rates at which females are assaulted by males. We'll just keep pretending that transwomen have it worse, and are assaulted more often - even though once you remove sex workers from the tallies they are NOT assaulted more often than females are. We can just sweep those inconvenient statistics and facts under the rug... like the fact that transwomen commit violent and sexual crimes at approximately the same rate as all other males. Like the fact that a larger percentage of transwomen in prison have been convicted of sexual crimes than males have.
Oh no, females can't be allowed to have safe private spaces where they aren't at risk of assault from men - that would be unfair to the males who identify as women even though they still have penises. They're not males despite the actual reality of their bodies, because, you know, they've made the decision that "male" doesn't mean anything.
I don't care what you "see" it as. A penis is a MALE organ. SEX IS NOT GENDER. Penises are NOT female organs. Your perception and your feelings don't dictate reality.
Oh, yes, I'm quite sure that you have biologically male firends who would benefit from being allowed to invade the privacy of females without consequence, on the basis of their declaration of being a "woman" even though none of you can actually explain wtf a "woman" is to you in the first place. You've just co-opted a word that has historically had a very clear definition... went on a lobbying tour to insist that "gender" is a feeling inside and somehow has nothing to do with biology, and also magically doesn't have anything to do with the gender roles and confining expectations of gender expression that have kept females subordinate for eons. As long as transwomen can just manage to completely strip the word "woman" of all meaning, and coerce people through threat and intimidation to accept a trite and useless slogan as being anything other than completely devoid of reason and a reflection of a wish, well, that's just how the game is played, right? Gender doesn't actually have any objective or useful meaning that has been of value to the entire human race for ages. Nope, it only has to do with some magical, mystical feeling in some people's brains... and feeling that somehow entitles transwomen to demand that everyone else ignore reality so they can have what they want.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Are you also inclined to immediately assume that any female who claims to have been raped is lying? Maybe she "asked for it", or had "morning after regrets"?
This is why there is a problem. If the transgender community can't at least own up to the harm being by some transgender people, and recognize the risk and harm this does to females... well... there's not going to be a lot of middle ground here.
The desire of transwomen to feel affirmed in their belief that their internal, inexplicable, and mystical concept of what constitutes a woman should not be sufficient to override the actual rights, safety, and privacy of females.
The feelings of transgender people are not more important that the rights of females.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
ORLY? Why do transactivists like yourself and your allies align with MRAs and incels then?
Just going back to something from the previous thread regarding Dr James Cantor's recent resignation from the Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality (QuadS).
Cantor is a leading researcher and advocate of scientific approaches in research on sex and gender. He proposed the 'Transsexual Bill of Rights' some time ago.
Resignation letter.
The email chain discussed.
I found this interview in which Cantor discusses his resignation interesting. In it he discusses inter-related issues including loss of academic freedom, rise of victimhood culture, acting on claims of victimhood without fact-checking, suppression of dissent and control of speech, and subversion of science to activism and ideology within the field. This also relates to a more general trend within academia and other institutions (which I have witnessed first-hand) which he describes as the onset of an 'intellectual dark age'.
One of the issues he raises is that true gender dysphoria is rare, and he compares the rise of transitioners and the phenomenon of silencing anyone who questions the narrative to the phenomenon of 'repressed memories' that occurred a couple of decades ago.
Unfortunately both Cantor and Boyce tend to ramble a bit, especially in the first 12 minutes after which he gets into the victimhood culture and failure of institutions. He discusses the comparison with repressed memory and satanic panic starting at 19.30. At 37.30 he discusses the loss of scientific perspective and in the later part covers some discussion of detransitioning (and how detransitioners are not heard because only those satisfied with transition become activists), and the issue of social contagion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SGva6eWTDQ&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=BenjaminABoyce
Cantor is a leading researcher and advocate of scientific approaches in research on sex and gender. He proposed the 'Transsexual Bill of Rights' some time ago.
Resignation letter.
The email chain discussed.
I found this interview in which Cantor discusses his resignation interesting. In it he discusses inter-related issues including loss of academic freedom, rise of victimhood culture, acting on claims of victimhood without fact-checking, suppression of dissent and control of speech, and subversion of science to activism and ideology within the field. This also relates to a more general trend within academia and other institutions (which I have witnessed first-hand) which he describes as the onset of an 'intellectual dark age'.
One of the issues he raises is that true gender dysphoria is rare, and he compares the rise of transitioners and the phenomenon of silencing anyone who questions the narrative to the phenomenon of 'repressed memories' that occurred a couple of decades ago.
Unfortunately both Cantor and Boyce tend to ramble a bit, especially in the first 12 minutes after which he gets into the victimhood culture and failure of institutions. He discusses the comparison with repressed memory and satanic panic starting at 19.30. At 37.30 he discusses the loss of scientific perspective and in the later part covers some discussion of detransitioning (and how detransitioners are not heard because only those satisfied with transition become activists), and the issue of social contagion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SGva6eWTDQ&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=BenjaminABoyce
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
I don't even know what to say here. I mean, you've repeatedly made appeals to majority opinion and surveys as support for your not-completely-accurate claim that most women support transwomen rights and self-identification. You've used "majority opinion" as your hammer throughout this thread.And now, when you've finally acknowledged that your original argument was suspect, and that the majority of women do NOT support the desires of Transwomen who haven't undergone GRS... NOW you want to say we can't trust majority opinion?
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
That was all very interesting to read.
I think that Cantor's proposed bill of rights seems fairly reasonable.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Trying to honor the pronouns discussion topic, even though the two are very closely linked.
In response to Steve...
In summary, what is being demanded as transgender rights includes:
- self-declaration of gender to be sufficient to qualify as transgender in all cases, with no medical diagnosis or treatment required
- self-declared transwomen to be counted as female when female patients request a female practitioner to perform intimate procedures on them - regardless of whether those transwomen have transitioned medically in any way at all
- self-declared transgirls to be allowed to compete with females in secondary school and university sports without being required to undergo hormone therapy, and despite any physical advantages conferred by a male puberty
- self-declared transwomen to have unfettered access to all female-segregated spaces including locker rooms and changing rooms accessible by all ages of females, and regardless of whether they have male genitalia
- self-declared transwomen to be housed in female prisons, regardless of their genitalia
- self-declared transwomen and transgirls to have access to female-only scholarships and grants
- self-declared transwomen to have the right to access female-only rape and domestic violence shelters, regardless of whether they have undergone any hormonal or medical transition, and regardless of their gender presentation
- self-declared transwomen to count as females with respect to affirmative action sex-based quotas and diversity expectations
- self-declared transwomen, regardless of transition status, to count as females for female-only short-list positions
- self-declared transwomen to be counted as females for statistical purposes when calculating pay gaps, rates of crime and types of crimes committed, etc.
Beyond those things, which could be considered 'rights' in a colloquial sense, we are also being asked for the following:
- the word "woman" applies to anyone who claims it and no longer refers to an adult human female
- replace all references to sex in legal protections and rights with the word gender instead
- reproductive organs no longer be considered sex-based traits, such that penises aren't considered male organs and uteruses aren't considered female organs... thus some women have penises
- alteration of commonly used language to 'avoid exclusion' so that medical and health related programs aimed at females of the human species should use terms like 'people with uteruses' or 'cervix-havers' or 'mentruators' essentially reducing half of the population to their reproductive capacity as group identifiers
- labeling cisgendered lesbians as 'transphobes' and 'bigots' if they don't wish to allow penetrative sex with a transwoman who has a penis
- defining hate crimes to include 'misgendering' and 'deadnaming', including stating the fact that a person born with 46XY chromosomes and male phenotype is a biological male
So.. yeah, it shouldn't have to be a zero-sum game, but as it stands right now, transgender people are NOT asking for equal rights of their own, they are asking to appropriate the rights of females specifically, and to simultaneously deny females a right to secure spaces and privacy from males.
I'd be happy to provide civil rights to transgender people as transgender people. I'd be thrilled to work to make sure that transgender people are free from discrimination and have access to services and safe spaces for them.
I do not, however, think that females of the human species should relinquish our rights and our meager progress and surrender those gains to people with penises on the basis of their self-declaration.
In response to Steve...
In summary, what is being demanded as transgender rights includes:
- self-declaration of gender to be sufficient to qualify as transgender in all cases, with no medical diagnosis or treatment required
- self-declared transwomen to be counted as female when female patients request a female practitioner to perform intimate procedures on them - regardless of whether those transwomen have transitioned medically in any way at all
- self-declared transgirls to be allowed to compete with females in secondary school and university sports without being required to undergo hormone therapy, and despite any physical advantages conferred by a male puberty
- self-declared transwomen to have unfettered access to all female-segregated spaces including locker rooms and changing rooms accessible by all ages of females, and regardless of whether they have male genitalia
- self-declared transwomen to be housed in female prisons, regardless of their genitalia
- self-declared transwomen and transgirls to have access to female-only scholarships and grants
- self-declared transwomen to have the right to access female-only rape and domestic violence shelters, regardless of whether they have undergone any hormonal or medical transition, and regardless of their gender presentation
- self-declared transwomen to count as females with respect to affirmative action sex-based quotas and diversity expectations
- self-declared transwomen, regardless of transition status, to count as females for female-only short-list positions
- self-declared transwomen to be counted as females for statistical purposes when calculating pay gaps, rates of crime and types of crimes committed, etc.
Beyond those things, which could be considered 'rights' in a colloquial sense, we are also being asked for the following:
- the word "woman" applies to anyone who claims it and no longer refers to an adult human female
- replace all references to sex in legal protections and rights with the word gender instead
- reproductive organs no longer be considered sex-based traits, such that penises aren't considered male organs and uteruses aren't considered female organs... thus some women have penises
- alteration of commonly used language to 'avoid exclusion' so that medical and health related programs aimed at females of the human species should use terms like 'people with uteruses' or 'cervix-havers' or 'mentruators' essentially reducing half of the population to their reproductive capacity as group identifiers
- labeling cisgendered lesbians as 'transphobes' and 'bigots' if they don't wish to allow penetrative sex with a transwoman who has a penis
- defining hate crimes to include 'misgendering' and 'deadnaming', including stating the fact that a person born with 46XY chromosomes and male phenotype is a biological male
So.. yeah, it shouldn't have to be a zero-sum game, but as it stands right now, transgender people are NOT asking for equal rights of their own, they are asking to appropriate the rights of females specifically, and to simultaneously deny females a right to secure spaces and privacy from males.
I'd be happy to provide civil rights to transgender people as transgender people. I'd be thrilled to work to make sure that transgender people are free from discrimination and have access to services and safe spaces for them.
I do not, however, think that females of the human species should relinquish our rights and our meager progress and surrender those gains to people with penises on the basis of their self-declaration.
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
You've made this claim several times now. You are probably right when it comes to women's spaces in which people are expected to undress in the presence of others, but I need to see some evidence that it also applied to women's restrooms. The only treatment protocols I am familiar with are the ones in which M2F transsexuals are expected to fully live as a woman as soon as possible, and that included exclusively using women's public restrooms -- clearly dressed and presenting as a woman -- to avoid any confusion about what gender role they were aiming for.
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