Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Emily's Cat]

I seriously question this figure. I consider myself to have led an exceptionally sheltered and fortunate life, but I have been physically sexually assaulted twice, both times by men. One of these men was a typical creep, the other was a Senior House Officer in Crawley Hospital. (Respiratory medicine, 1988, and I think the consultant in charge was called Mr. Thoroughgood or something like that. The offending SHO was of Far Easten ethnicity. And if that identifies anyone, do they want to make something of it? Because I can remember the date too.)

Neither assault was serious, I wasn't raped or anything, but they were both sexual assaults. Which I did nothing about, in the first case because I didn't want to cause a fuss in a cinema while the film was showing and in the second case because, believe it or not, I didn't want to damage the doctor's career.

I genuinely think that if the women answering these surveys were encouraged to think more deeply about what has happened to them, including incidents they didn't think were serious enough to raise a stink about (that pesky conditioning again), you'd get a lot more than 33%.

I think it entirely feasible that it's higher than that. I also think that a LOT of women (females in this case) have become so inured to it that we just don't even recognize and acknowledge it as having happened.

When a partner beats you until you need medical assistance, the slap on the face that barely leaves a red mark just doesn't register in comparison.

I would say that it's likely to be 1 in 3 that have been seriously sexually assaulted, to a point where they were genuinely fearful of rape, or they sustained blatant physical assaults that were sexual in nature. I suspect that most of the people reporting probably don't think to consider the butt or boob grab in a public place by a stranger, or the guy who just won't take no for an answer at a party and keeps trying to get you pinned in a corner and won't stop trying to kiss you, or the guy who grabs your hips and rubs his groin all over you because you're on the dance floor.

But that's speculation based on personal experience and talking to oodles of other female women over the course of my life... so you know, it's "anecdotes".

 

[Emily's Cat]

Tell me that again when you have had to deal with a 14 year old who has been chucked out of house and home because they are trans.

Tell me that again when you have had to institute a direct intervention for a trans muslim stick in a refugee camp surrounded by devout muslims. Fearing death.

Have you no idea how awful that is for them?

Why do people that have not put boots on the frontline not see the evil they are doing?

Tell me again how throwing open the doors to female spaces and female protections helps that 14 year old find a home, or keeps that refugee free from harm by other muslims?

I support civil rights and protections for transgender people from violence and harm. Taking rights and protections away from females does not accomplish that. All it does is take away the rights and protections of females.

 

[Emily's Cat]

???
I believe my policy views are quite a bit different from yours.

In general terms, I believe that - regarding policy - trans women should be treated as women, in exactly the same way as cis women are treated. There are two main caveats to my position though: 1) I don't believe that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sport at any sort of significant competitive level (eg international, national or regional events); 2) there will be matter - gender-segregated communal changing rooms in gyms etc being one - where (IMO) a certain amount of negotiation and latitude will have to be undertaken by all stakeholder, in order to achieve a solution which repects all stakeholders' rights & safety as much as is reasonably positive.


Whereas it appears to me that you do not - as a fundamental bedrock of your belief system on this subject - believe that trans women should be treated in exactly the same way as cis women in policy terms; you don't for example believe that any trans women should be allowed to access communal women's changing rooms in gyms etc. Your position appears to me to be along the lines of: "I am perfectly fine with transgender people identifying as their trans gender, but I certainly dont want trans women to be considered women in policy terms - especially with respect to women-only spaces".


Obviously if I've misinterpreted your beliefs (and I've only interpreted them on the basis of what you've written within this thread), I'd be very happy to be corrected.

Me:

Sports - only after hormones are consistently and testably within a normal female range, and in some sports even that may not be acceptable (fighting, for example), but some case-by-case may be okay.

Toilets - I don't care. Stalls for everyone.

Changing Rooms - have at it as long as you don't have a penis. I am willing to consider case-by-case exceptions at the discretion of the owner of the venue, and with the expectation of modesty and respect for the other women there.

Prisons - No natural penises in the female ward... but neuvopenises are okay by me. Even fully surgically altered transmen are female. If transgender people are at exceptionally higher risk in the male ward, then find a different solution.

Short-lists, scholarships, grants, recognition, etc - No. Just No. Females are ALREADY disadvantaged in society, we're already not equal, and we're already dismissed out of hand and our voices are ignored (or we're called hysterical and told it's all in our heads) by males. I'm happy to help create similar support structures for transgender people, but I do not think it is appropriate for female civil progress so be made subordinate.

+++++++

For most of my life, sex and gender were treated as the same thing., Transgender activists put a lot of effort into convincing the world that gender is different from sex. I'm on board with that. I think there's a lot of repressive gender stereotypes in there, but I can work with it in the name of making life better for people who've got a rough go of it.

But I'm NOT for the new shift that insists that sex is irrelevant, and I'm NOT for the push to replace sex-based services and protections with gender-based ones. And I find it frankly asinine that I could possibly be called a transphobe and a bigot for accurately and correctly acknowledging that a male person is, in fact, male, while simultaneously referring to that person as a woman and using feminine pronouns. That is beyond reason and well into the range of gaslighting biology.

Honestly, I came into this discussion with some reservations and some concerns about the effect that the transgender activist agenda has on females. But I came in expecting to learn more, and to find that these "progressive" people were inclusive and caring and that they were willing to talk through and alleviate my worries.

That's not what I've experienced. What I've experienced is abuse, harassment, insult, and the persistent dismissal and mockery of my concerns. I've been told - by males - that I'm hysterical, that I'm overreacting, that I'm imaging it all. I've been told that even if some women get seriously harmed by this push to treat self-declared gender identity as more important than factual biological sex... well, that's no big deal, it's okay, because those transgender people have it harder and females should just suck it up and accept the reduction of their rights, the reduction of their safety, and the loss of their recognition and civl progress... because females are less important than the feelings of transgender males who identify as women.

The more I have researched the plight of transwomen in particular, the less supportive I have become. The sheer volume of hatred and vile behavior from transgender males who identify as women toward females - the wishes for violence and rape done to females - is appalling. The treatment of lesbians is downright terrifying.

And if the transcommunity wants to shield that viciously misogynistic behavior and provide cover for it in favor of affirming the feelings of those males who fetishize women, who demand that lesbians should suck their "girldicks", and who wish rape upon females who are concerned for their safety and their privacy...

I run out of words. I cannot support a group of people who wish harm on females, who demean and ridicule females, who feel that their emotions are of paramount importance and justify revoking a century of slow and painful progress for females.

So yeah. At the moment, I'm happy to support transsexuals. And I will continue to argue that transgender people should not be subject to violence on the basis of how they express themselves. And I will continue to fight for the right of transgender people to not be fired or denied housing or necessary medical treatment on the basis of their dysphoria.

But I think I'm pretty much at a point of "peak trans" here, and I might go ahead and rebrand TERF to be "Trans Exceptioned Rational Female"

Might need to work on that "E" some.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And I'm sure that Boudicca90 found that exchange to be highly amusing as well....

Well.. you know, that whole calling actual females hysterical and insisting that our concerns aren't a big deal, and that we're imaging it and overreacting... after insisting that male-bodied people are 'winning' and are going to force themsevles into female-only spaces and there's nothing we can do about it...

I'm not sure I actually care whether she found it humorous or not to describe the presumptuously dismissive and demeaning behavior that seems to prevalent among transwomen who believe that their feelings are more important than the safety and rights of females.

Screw it. I need a new word to refer to myself here, because I don't really want to share "women", and I refuse to keep referring to myself in the terms of livestock. It is beyond dehumanizing to be forced into a situation where I have to refer to my self and those like me by our biological sex alone, as if we are nothing more than our reproductive capacity - we cervix havers and people with uteruses and people who menstruate. I refuse to be demeaned to such an extent. It is degrading.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yep, so you would not be supportive of me being around you. Despite having used women's restrooms, locker rooms, and spas exclusively for a few years now (because I am a woman), you think I should be banned because I still have a penis? Even though I guarantee you would not be able to tell I was once male. I was not very masculine to begin with, so hormones have been pretty effective for me.

Tell you what - if I can't tell you're male, and I don't see your penis, then I'm not going to be worried about it now, am I?

But that's not where you stop - you insist that people who ARE visibly male and masculine, people who DO NOT make sure they're respectful and stay covered - should have unfettered access to female spaces. You want to force females to accept into their midst not just decent, caring sensitive transwomen who are trying to get by in a world that doesn't understand them... but also all of the creeptastic, fetishistic, misogynistic, males that do nothing more than declare themselves a woman and expect that females can have no say about it. Do you really expect that because Jessica Yaniv has "decided" that they are a "woman", I should be forced to allow her and her balls into any female-space they wish? Do you actually think that there is anything remotely approaching justice and civil liberty in allowing that Long Chu person who believes that the essence of womanhood is being a vessel for another person's desire to have access to female private areas? Really?

If you would draw a reasonable line and at least *pretend* to give a crap about the disadvantages and challenges that females actually face in the real world... I would be a lot more sympathetic. Instead, however, you've made it perfectly care that you think females aren't as valuable as you, their voices don't matter, their challenges are beneath you. Your feelings are more important than our safety.

Nope, surgery or hormones aren't necessary to transition and shouldn't be. We all have our own transition goals and that's why I support Self ID, because transitioning isn't always the same for everybody and people shouldn't have to medically or surgically transition if they don't want to. Like me retaining my penis doesn't make me any less of a woman. A woman can have a penis and a man can have a vagina.

Penises are not female organs. Vaginas are not male organs. How you feel about yourself does not change reality, and it is irrational to demand that everyone else pretend that it does.

Your feelings should not be held as more important than my safety, privacy, and rights.

 

[cullennz]

I think it entirely feasible that it's higher than that. I also think that a LOT of women (females in this case) have become so inured to it that we just don't even recognize and acknowledge it as having happened.

When a partner beats you until you need medical assistance, the slap on the face that barely leaves a red mark just doesn't register in comparison.

I would say that it's likely to be 1 in 3 that have been seriously sexually assaulted, to a point where they were genuinely fearful of rape, or they sustained blatant physical assaults that were sexual in nature. I suspect that most of the people reporting probably don't think to consider the butt or boob grab in a public place by a stranger, or the guy who just won't take no for an answer at a party and keeps trying to get you pinned in a corner and won't stop trying to kiss you, or the guy who grabs your hips and rubs his groin all over you because you're on the dance floor.

But that's speculation based on personal experience and talking to oodles of other female women over the course of my life... so you know, it's "anecdotes".

Would love to see study you based this stat on

 

[Emily's Cat]

Would love to see study you based this stat on

I've linked to it a few times in this thread.

I'm emotionally exhausted at the moment. I'll try to find it next week. Although, if you google for sexual assault statistics, it's likely to pop up. IIRC, it's US figures. It may not be the same for other countries.

 

[cullennz]

I've linked to it a few times in this thread.

I'm emotionally exhausted at the moment. I'll try to find it next week. Although, if you google for sexual assault statistics, it's likely to pop up. IIRC, it's US figures. It may not be the same for other countries.

So you meant to say

"I would say that it's likely to be 1 in 3 US females that have been seriously sexually assaulted"

If you could find it I would appreciate it, as I am interested to see the word "seriously" among that many

 

[Emily's Cat]

So you meant to say

"I would say that it's likely to be 1 in 3 US females that have been seriously sexually assaulted"

If you could find it I would appreciate it, as I am interested to see the word "seriously" among that many

It didn't specify "seriously". It just says 1 in 3 have been sexually assaulted. Those include rapes. Every single female I have talked to in my life, above the age of about 25, has experienced a sexual assault. But many of them don't result in physical damage. Every female I know has been pinned in a corner by a drunken guy at a party who doesn't want to take no for an answer, and has needed the assistance of other people to extricate themselves. Every female I know has had their butt or their boob grabbed and fondled by a stranger in a crowded venue. I've lost track of the number of females I know who have had a complete stranger grab them by the hips and start grinding his groin on them when they were at a dance club. I've had multiple guys at parties in college grab my hand and place it on their crotch so I could "feel" how much they liked me.

Females experience that sort of thing waaaaaay more frequently than most men realize. It's a part of our existence. So I speculate that when they asked females whether they had been sexually assaulted... most of the females answering only considered whether they had been seriously assaulted, in a way that caused them harm or threatened them physically.

Thus, you get Rolfe and I speculating that the 1 in 3 number is under-reported.

 

[MisAndreG]

I just find it amusing that he's white-knighting Boudicca (I suppose that's politer than brown-nosing, which is how it comes across to me) while crapping on actual women from a great height.

MRAs tend to stick together ��

ETA: I’m just teasing.

 

[theprestige]

I wonder what would happen if a transwoman posted in this thread, "I don't want cismales in women's spaces any more than cisfemales do. We should all work together to find a way to let me in while keeping them out."

I think a post like that would be a total game changer in this discussion. I think Boudicca would find she's a lot less hated than she imagines.

 

[Meadmaker]

Tell me that again when you have had to deal with a 14 year old who has been chucked out of house and home because they are trans.

Tell me that again when you have had to institute a direct intervention for a trans muslim stick in a refugee camp surrounded by devout muslims. Fearing death.

Have you no idea how awful that is for them?

Why do people that have not put boots on the frontline not see the evil they are doing?

I confess, I do not see myself as doing evil here. I don't believe that saying, "You aren't allowed in the girls' locker room" is the same as throwing a 14 year old out of their house, or the same as killing anyone.

Maybe I'm just short sighted.

 

[cullennz]

It didn't specify "seriously". It just says 1 in 3 have been sexually assaulted. Those include rapes. Every single female I have talked to in my life, above the age of about 25, has experienced a sexual assault. But many of them don't result in physical damage. Every female I know has been pinned in a corner by a drunken guy at a party who doesn't want to take no for an answer, and has needed the assistance of other people to extricate themselves. Every female I know has had their butt or their boob grabbed and fondled by a stranger in a crowded venue. I've lost track of the number of females I know who have had a complete stranger grab them by the hips and start grinding his groin on them when they were at a dance club. I've had multiple guys at parties in college grab my hand and place it on their crotch so I could "feel" how much they liked me.

Females experience that sort of thing waaaaaay more frequently than most men realize. It's a part of our existence. So I speculate that when they asked females whether they had been sexually assaulted... most of the females answering only considered whether they had been seriously assaulted, in a way that caused them harm or threatened them physically.

Thus, you get Rolfe and I speculating that the 1 in 3 number is under-reported.

Then not "1 in 3 that have been seriously assaulted"

It is more "1 in 3 US females that have been groped or something worse"

I have had my arse grabbed by a chick, but I appreciate it is more common among females.

Edit: Changed felt up to groped as the former makes it sound too minor

 

[cullennz]

Forgive me but I have been a complete idiot (not the first time)

I stupidly miss read your post as saying seriously instead of sexually

I totally apologise

 

[Emily's Cat]

Forgive me but I have been a complete idiot (not the first time)

I stupidly miss read your post as saying seriously instead of sexually

I totally apologise

No worries. The one you quoted a few back said both - "seriously sexually assaulted". It was intended to distinguish between "minor" sexual assaults like groping, compared to "major" sexual assaults like attempted rape or physically pinning someone down to feel them up and hurting them in the process. All of those are sexual assaults... but I speculate that the 1 in 3 sexual assaults reported was more likely "1 in 3 major sexual assaults". I speculate that if it were to include minor sexual assaults (which a lot of women ignore and dismiss because they are so common) it would be a higher proportion of women answering in the affirmative.

 

[Meadmaker]

Going to (2) first: well for a start, trans women are not disabled. Separate disabled changing rooms exist primarily because certain disabilities require changing, showering and toilet facilites which are not present in regular changing rooms. But trans women don't need special facilities in this way. And requiring a trans woman to use the disabled changing room is a) a tacit way of saying that transgender identity is a disability, and b) putting transgender people into a changing room which has no link whatsoever to their condition/identity.

So change the sign on the door to read something else. Argument from signage isn't something I find compelling.

So onto (1). The first thing is, one can make more-or-less the same argument as for trans women in women's changing rooms: men/boys feeling uncomfortable changing and getting naked in the presence of people identifying as women - and transgender people who have sometimes also had medical and/or surgical treatment to change their appearance and body functions to more closely resemble those of biological females. Yes, it's a reasonable argument that trans women in women's changing rooms would probably present greater potential risk to other women within those changing rooms, compared with the potential risk to men from sharing their changing rooms with trans women. But that (IMO) is the only real point of difference - and in any case we're still a long way from having anything like reliable data pertaining to just how much risk to cis women might result from allowing trans women to use women's changing rooms...

It's not how they identify that matters, so your initial analogy doesn't work.

And this paragraph shows the real problem that comes up with using the same term for a surgically transitioned person as a self-declared with no alterations performed person. For surgically transitioned people, treat them as their adopted gender. For people with no alterations, treat them as their biological sex, but offer them some sort of private zone if they wish it. For people in the midst of transition.......I really don't know. I simply don't know enough about the process to try and make policy. I know that by the time there's boobs involved, using the men's room is, at best, awkward.

What I do know is that it makes no sense to say, "You can't tell me which bathroom someone should use after 18 months of hormone therapy, therefore Darrell who has no intention of ever physically transitioning even partially should be able to use the women's locker room.

So: where should trans women change, whenever they choose to visit the gym/pool/sports facility etc?

A private room (in the UK it appears there are "disability" rooms. In the US, there are "family" or "unisex" rooms), or the men's room. Their choice.


If there is no private room, again I'm not going to try to make detailed policy, It's a fine point that legislative staffs need to work out.

 

[cullennz]

So change the sign on the door to read something else. Argument from signage isn't something I find compelling.




It's not how they identify that matters, so your initial analogy doesn't work.

And this paragraph shows the real problem that comes up with using the same term for a surgically transitioned person as a self-declared with no alterations performed person. For surgically transitioned people, treat them as their adopted gender. For people with no alterations, treat them as their biological sex, but offer them some sort of private zone if they wish it. For people in the midst of transition.......I really don't know. I simply don't know enough about the process to try and make policy. I know that by the time there's boobs involved, using the men's room is, at best, awkward.

What I do know is that it makes no sense to say, "You can't tell me which bathroom someone should use after 18 months of hormone therapy, therefore Darrell who has no intention of ever physically transitioning even partially should be able to use the women's locker room.



A private room (in the UK it appears there are "disability" rooms. In the US, there are "family" or "unisex" rooms), or the men's room. Their choice.


If there is no private room, again I'm not going to try to make detailed policy, It's a fine point that legislative staffs need to work out.

Not sure about other countries, but here there is usually just one.

They are built for a purpose. Hand rails. Bigger spaces for wheel chairs etc.

They have a hard enough time trying to get a disability car park without some non-disabled jerk using them for convenience, without also taking over
the only place they can take a crap.

 

[Meadmaker]

Not sure about other countries, but here there is usually just one.

They are built for a purpose. Hand rails. Bigger spaces for wheel chairs etc.

They have a hard enough time trying to get a disability car park without some non-disabled jerk using them for convenience, without also taking over
the only place they can take a crap.

So it all depends on the size of the venue, the expected number of users, the number of available stall, etc. etc, too detailed for a forum.

The point is, if there's a private place, use it in preference to using the girls' room. Venue designers should try to be aware of and accommodate all their users.

Those are the ideals. What if the ideal doesn't exist? What if there's nothing but boys' and girls'? Well....be discreet in the girls'? What they don't know won't hurt them? I really don't know.

The evolution of my thoughts on this subject was strongly influenced by the reaction when there were private spots available, but the transgirls refused to use them. (And it was almost always transgirls/women who refused. The transboys seemed ok with a private spot or the girls' room. Go figure.) I saw that it wasn't about privacy, and it wasn't about safety, and it wasn't even about living life the way they wanted. It was about getting affirmation from other people, and I just didn't think that was a noble goal. "I won't be truly accepted as a woman until you take off your clothes." didn't seem like a firm basis for public policy.

So I haven't thought through every possible variation of venue and user and situation. I've got some principles I would generally apply, and do my best with some edge cases. The core principle is to support safety and privacy. If I can boost someone's self esteem in the process, bonus, but it's lower on my list of desirable goals.

 

[cullennz]

Sorry.

I put my post a bit to abrupt.

I have no disability my self, but know quite a few people who do for certain reasons, some very close and when people start talking about using what little disabled people have to make their life less **** than it already is, I kind of get bit touchy.

Apologies

Edit: Unless you count my severe lack of grammar skills

 

[Meadmaker]

Sorry.

I put my post a bit to abrupt.

I have no disability my self, but know quite a few people who do for certain reasons, some very close and when people start talking about using what little disabled people have to make their life less **** than it already is, I kind of get bit touchy.

Apologies

Edit: Unless you count my severe lack of grammar skills

No worries. My initial response was brief and unclear.