Randi not dealing with religious paranormal?

Not an official claim of the Church
Not an official claim of the Church
Not an official claim of the Church
Not an official claim of the Church
Not even a claim of the Church
Yes, that is me.
The ONLY commentary of Randi dedicated to Medjugorje, I have tried to contact Randi to publish other material I have prepared but no success
Unfortunately, Medjugorje is still not an official claim of the Catholic Church ( even if, according to many estimates 25 million+ people went as pilgrims to Medjugorje since 1981 )
Not an official claim of the Church
Not an official claim of the Church
Not an official claim of the Church
Not an official claim of the Church

He seems to deliberately avoid the " official " claims of the Church.
Not a commentary on Padre Pio.
Not a commentary on Mother Theresa.
Only some generic hints about Lourdes ( without any precise reference to any actual " miracle " )



But when I tried to do things seriously ( publish videos, etc. ), Randi refused to proceed..
You seem to be hung up on the claims of a single church, and ignoring even those claims if they are not "official". There are many "churches" with many claims. The claims of the Catholic church are mostly untestable and historical. But if you feel that is not the case, then please provide some more examples like you did in your excellent input in the linked commentary. Tell us how you think Randi should address them.

Here's one on Mother Theresa
Here's another
Here's one on Padre Pio

But of course, all of these claims are historical. It's a bit difficult to get reliable information about these events. Do you think the Catholic church would be an unbiased source? The "witnesses"? How would you go about getting objective info on these miracles when their records are kept almost exclusively by believers?

I think Randi has tried to do a good job of keeping up with current claims from many different groups. Perhaps the Catholic church believes that their miracles are more reliable than those of other groups, but I assure you that all other religious groups feel the same way.

But the best thing you can do to assure attention in the future is to keep the JREF apprised of current claims. While you're at it, keep in mind the miracles claimed by groups other than the Catholic church. They are not the sole receptical of such things.
 

It seems that it was me who was wrong
Randi DID in fact address ( at least ) one claimed miracle of the Catholic Church in a concise but straight way, the claimed miracle of Monica Besra.
What he has written is more than enough, he provided the links to what Monica' s husband said about the miracle and what he quoted puts in serious doubt the supernatural nature of the " miracle "
I had not searched accurately enough ( maybe I typed " Theresa " in the search box instead of " Teresa "? ) and I am happy to having been proven wrong.

P.S.
Only six words in your link of Padre Pio ( " Padre Pio the Masochist is elevated " ), but maybe one day Randi will write more..

P.P.S.
And maybe one day he will publish my research on Medjugorje
 
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It seems that it was me who was wrong
Randi DID in fact address ( at least ) one claimed miracle of the Catholic Church in a concise but straight way, the claimed miracle of Monica Besra.
What he has written is more than enough, he provided the links to what Monica' s husband said about the miracle and what he quoted puts in serious doubt the supernatural nature of the " miracle "
I had not searched accurately enough ( maybe I typed " Theresa " in the search box instead of " Teresa "? ) and I am happy to having been proven wrong.

P.S.
Only six words in your link of Padre Pio ( " Padre Pio the Masochist is elevated " ), but maybe one day Randi will write more..

P.P.S.
And maybe one day he will publish my research on Medjugorje
Thank you, Mr. Martini. I too hope that he will address more claims, but there are so many and he is but one man. Of course there are others, like you, who are picking up some of the slack. If you choose to focus on the miracles of the Catholic church, then that may be your niche. I'm guessing it's very difficult to get reliable testimony and even more difficult to get hard evidence for these things, but I wish you well.

I hope Randi will publish, or at least reference your research as well.
 
I have already said it before but I will said it again:
1) Randi does not only deal with claims that are specifically targeted to the Challenge, but devotes much of his time to discuss general topics about the paranormal and claims, as read in newspapers, TV and so on, which come from people/institutions which have no plan to take on the Challenge;
2) Since the Catholic Church makes specific and official claims about the paranormal, even if it does not apply for the Challenge, it is strange to see that Randi does not deal with such claims.
And this would mean...?

Is the implication that these are unassailable? Or is it that Randi isn't going after every claim of the paranormal?

Seriously, these are garden-variety confirmation bias. That's it. Nothing miraculous about it, which is probably why it doesn't garner any attention. That is, from anyone but you apparently.

He's addressed confirmation bias extensively; not skewering a specific instance is not indicative of much beyond not having time for everyone everywhere. Magical thinking is widespread; the idea is to make critical thinking as widespread to counter it, not to assail every small hillock it claims.
 
Thank you, Mr. Martini. I too hope that he will address more claims, but there are so many and he is but one man. Of course there are others, like you, who are picking up some of the slack. If you choose to focus on the miracles of the Catholic church, then that may be your niche..

Quite a big niche, if we consier the 1 billion+ of the Catholics in the world
:)

I'm guessing it's very difficult to get reliable testimony and even more difficult to get hard evidence for these things, but I wish you well.

I hope Randi will publish, or at least reference your research as well.

I hope that too..
I will try to send him another mail, maybe

P.S.
You can find some of the files here: www.gispre.org
Most of the articles are in Italian, but some are in English..
 
Quite a big niche, if we consier the 1 billion+ of the Catholics in the world.
True, but the niche of Catholics skeptically and subjectively examining the miracles of the church is somewhat open. You could fill it without too much competition.

I hope that too..
I will try to send him another mail, maybe
Randi rarely replies to mail. (At least not mine.):mad: I suspect he has a lot on his plate. Another description of how you tried to verify a miracle would probably be welcomed.

But the JREF always replies to challenge applicants. If you can get someone to do this, it would be great. I'd love to see some of the church miracles tested.

P.S.
You can find some of the files here: www.gispre.org
Most of the articles are in Italian, but some are in English..
I'll have a look. I am embarassed that I, like so many Americans, can only read one language, but such is life. I'll try to comment on some of the articles that are in English.
 
I have provided the links to the official site of the Vatican ( in six languages!! )
In English:
" The miracle was the cure of Dr. Manuel Nevado from cancerous chronic radiodermatitis, an incurable disease, which took place in November 1992. The decree opened the doors for the canonization of Blessed Josemaria. "
http://www.vatican.va/latest/documents/escriva_miracolo-canoniz_en.html
In French: http://www.vatican.va/latest/documents/escriva_miracolo-canoniz_fr.html
In Spanish: http://www.vatican.va/latest/documents/escriva_miracolo-canoniz_sp.html
In German: http://www.vatican.va/latest/documents/escriva_miracolo-canoniz_ge.html

From the press:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,577830,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2303247.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/22/wsaint22.xml
http://www.opusdei.org/art.php?w=32&a=1561
And this happened in 1992, does that count as a spectacular claim happening right now?

Cancer goes into remission, many and varying claims are made, how does this rise to the level of the challenge, is the church claiming that a current person can do this in a controlled setting?
Again, please refer to the link above, it is in the Vatican web site.
I think it is pretty clear and straightforward.
And the point that the events took place in the past is not the main point, in my opinion, the Church claims that with the evidence available today it is possible to state that the event is a " miracle "

And when the Pope goes on the Today show to make the announcement then i am sure randi will comment.
Not one commentary about the above claims

But are there comments about catholicism?
 
True, but the niche of Catholics skeptically and subjectively examining the miracles of the church is somewhat open. You could fill it without too much competition..

The problem is that Catholic are maybe not usually interested in examining the miracles ( is that the reason why they are Catholics, eh! eh! )
As many people who believes in the paranormal..
So, if we want that some analytical research should be done in that sense, we have to rely on skeptics

Randi rarely replies to mail. (At least not mine.):mad: I suspect he has a lot on his plate. Another description of how you tried to verify a miracle would probably be welcomed.

I think that showing that a " miracle " has ( if it has!! ) a rational explanation would be enough, at least for me..

But the JREF always replies to challenge applicants. If you can get someone to do this, it would be great. I'd love to see some of the church miracles tested.

The miracles are, by " definition " not repeteable and, therefore, not testable as a dowser.
But you can still look at the medical papers and make some considerations..
And, this is quite obvious, the Church will never apply to Randi' s prize

I'll have a look. I am embarassed that I, like so many Americans, can only read one language, but such is life. I'll try to comment on some of the articles that are in English.

Some of the videos have people of Oregon on it.
Here is my old website ( English and Italian ): www.aboutmedjugorje.com
But I am closing it down because nobody is interested..
 
And this happened in 1992, does that count as a spectacular claim happening right now?

Yes, they claim, if you look at the medical evidence

Cancer goes into remission, many and varying claims are made, how does this rise to the level of the challenge, is the church claiming that a current person can do this in a controlled setting?

They say it is not the person who " does " the miracle ", but God.
And they said that this kind of cancer has no record of spontaneus healing

And when the Pope goes on the Today show to make the announcement then i am sure randi will comment.

Maybe he has no need to go on today' s show

But are there comments about catholicism?

????
 
I wish i could remember where I saw it, but some years ago I read about a study of "miraculous" cures from cancer in people who had visited Lourdes which showed that the proportion of certified-miracle cancer cures was actually less than the rate of spontaneous remission from cancer in the general population.
The authors of the study pointed out that the finding could be explained by the fact that most of the cancer victims who go to Lourdes are likely to be in the terminal stages of the illness. But even so....

I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but in The Demon-Haunted World, Carl Sagan wrote:

Since 1858 something like a hundred million people have come to Lourdes in the hope of being cured, many with illnesses that the medicine of the time was helpless to defeat. The Roman Catholic Church rejected the authenticity of large numbers of claimed miraculous cures, accepting only 65 in nearly a century and a half .... The odds of a miraculous cure in Lourdes then are about one in a million; you are roughly as likely to recover after visiting Lourdes as you are to win the lottery, or to die in the crash of a randomly selected regularly scheduled airplane flight - including the one taking you to Lourdes.

The spontaneous remission rates of all cancers ... is estimated to be something between 1 in 10,000 and 1 in 100,000. If no more than 5% of those who come to Lourdes were there to treat their cancers, there should have been something between 50 and 500 "miraculous" cures of cancer alone. Since only 3 of the attested 65 cures are of cancer, the rate of remission at Lourdes seems to be lower than if the victims had just stayed at home.

I seem to recall an old commentary of Randi's mentioning this observation of Sagan's. Unfortunately, I suspect Sagan was guilty of some faulty reasoning here.

Published figures suggest that 100 million (the rough accuracy of which at the time of writing I don't question) corresponds to the total number of visitors or at least pilgrims having traveled to Lourdes. The overwhelming majority of these people were not, pre-visit, even eligible for subsequent consideration as miracle case. Most of them were simply religious tourists who did not go there in the hope of being cured of anything.

Based on data on the Lourdes website, roughly 6 million people visit the shrine each year nowadays, and about 31,000 of them are hosted at the facilities offered for sick and disabled pilgrims, where we might expect most such people to stay. Let's guesstimate that maybe 35,000 annual visitors suffer from a serious illness or disability. That's less than 0.6% of the total visitors, and one might reasonably extrapolate that perhaps only 600,000 of Sagan's cited 100,000,000 million people were seriously sick or disabled. Sagan's arbitrary estimate of 5% applied to this figure yields 30,000 visitors hoping for a cancer cure. Also using Sagan's cited 1:10,000 to 1:100,000 spontaneous remission rate, we would then expect the number of pilgrims coincidentally going into spontaneous remission to be, not between 50 and 500, but between zero and three. In fact, as Sagan points out, there were three "miraculous" cancer cures during the period in question.

So Dr. Sagan (or his source) appears to have made a mistake. It seems unlikely, based on this informal examination, that the rate of remission at Lourdes is less than what one would expect in the general population, and it's just possible that the rate is considerably higher - though, obviously, the likely reasons for that would not include "divine intervention".
 
Sagan's arbitrary estimate of 5% applied to this figure yields 30,000 visitors hoping for a cancer cure.

Granted that that IS an arbitrary estimate, I wonder if there's any way to tell how many people are actually there for cancer? My very non-medical random guess would be that if you have a hundred people with serious medical conditions who can still get around on pilgrimages, more than 5 of those would have cancer, but I admittedly come from a cancer-riddled family tree and thus may have a skewed view of the averages. Do they interview pilgrims on the spot and say "'Scuse me, what've you got?" or what?
 
Granted that that IS an arbitrary estimate, I wonder if there's any way to tell how many people are actually there for cancer?

I'm more concerned about the statement that 31,000 people stay in the hospice, and therefore
we assume that 35,000 suffer from a serious illness or disability.

My understanding is that, for the most part, cancer is relatively non-disabling until the absolute final stages, and that even "terminal" cancer patients would not be that much more likely to need hospice facilities than the general public.

So depending on how many ambulatory cancer patients I assume visit Lourdes, I could get almost any number I liked out of this particular back-of-the-envelope estimate.
 
Granted that that IS an arbitrary estimate, I wonder if there's any way to tell how many people are actually there for cancer? My very non-medical random guess would be that if you have a hundred people with serious medical conditions who can still get around on pilgrimages, more than 5 of those would have cancer, but I admittedly come from a cancer-riddled family tree and thus may have a skewed view of the averages. Do they interview pilgrims on the spot and say "'Scuse me, what've you got?" or what?

I have no idea, unfortunately.


drkitten said:
I'm more concerned about the statement that 31,000 people stay in the hospice, and therefore we assume that 35,000 suffer from a serious illness or disability.

My understanding is that, for the most part, cancer is relatively non-disabling until the absolute final stages, and that even "terminal" cancer patients would not be that much more likely to need hospice facilities than the general public.

So depending on how many ambulatory cancer patients I assume visit Lourdes, I could get almost any number I liked out of this particular back-of-the-envelope estimate.

I really don't know. It turns out to be more of an official hostel for pilgrims hoping for cures to serious conditions than a hospice or hospital, in fact, and some of the accommodations are clearly for people who, though ill, are perfectly ambulatory and may need no special medical attention. I also realize now that the visitor figures at that hostel include healthy persons accompanying sick/disabled people, so not all guests are ill. The figure at that main center would thus be less than 31,000 per year.

I can't reliably calculate the total annual number of seriously ill pilgrims, although I am inclined to think that the dedicated hostel houses a significant percentage of them. And with the number of visitors including so many tourists, school groups, healthy persons accompanying the sick, and so forth, I strongly suspect that no more than 1 in every 100 Lourdes visitors, on average, is likely to have traveled there for the purpose of trying for a miraculous cure. My main point, however, was that Sagan, in The Demon-Haunted World, appears to have assumed that just about every visitor falls into this category, which is obviously wrong - and so his observation is skewed accordingly. The same observation enjoys wide circulation on the Internet, which is unfortunate since it's one of the rare things Sagan wrote that makes him look sloppy.
 
It would be very nice to have a serious study on:
1) the estimates of the number of pilgrims going and gone to Lourdes, the number of healings claimed as " miraculous ", the number of healings officially declared as miraculous by the Church ( well, this one it is 67 );
2) some study about the number of " spontaneous " healings occurring in the world, like this one: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4432564.stm; AFAIK, unfortunately, there is not such an archive of the unexpected healings occurring spontaneously all over the world
3) a comparision between the number of healings in Lourdes when compared with the estimated number of people going to Lourdes and being ill and the number of unexpected healings occurring spontaneously all over the world: is there a statistical relevancy?
4) an analysis in deep of all the documentation available about the so-called " miracles ": are they really unexplainable other than by a supernatural intervention? Is there enough documentation available to the public to reach any conclusion?

I think a work like this could be very interesting to provide a common base of disussion between believers and skeptic.
My point is that, even by skeptics, there has not be written much of " analytical " about the miracles of the Church.
I tried to do something ( had to quit my job for three months!! ), but I did not find many people with the same interest:(
 

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