Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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I get that the bathroom and changing room questions are exciting and interesting, and involve some discussion of genitalia... but there are other aspects that I think merit discussion, as they have more direct impact on females:

What's your view on untransitioned transwomen:
- competing in female sports?
- performing intimate medical and person treatments on females when the female has requested a female doctor/nurse/aide?
- being housed in female prisons?
- qualifying for female shortlist positions or being counted as females for quotas?
- having access to female scholarships and grants?

The discussion always gets dragged back to toilets and changing rooms. Can we just set those aside as a case where there's probably a reasonable compromise available... and maybe focus on the areas where there is a real issue of safety and rights?

Nice.

I can't see many answers being forthcoming.

Excellent point on female-only scholarships, something I hadn't thought about. How do people get on with race-based scholarships? It surely must be easier to identify as black than a different gender; some "black" people are lighter than me. How did that Rachel Dolezal business go?
 
Nice.

I can't see many answers being forthcoming.

Excellent point on female-only scholarships, something I hadn't thought about. How do people get on with race-based scholarships? It surely must be easier to identify as black than a different gender; some "black" people are lighter than me. How did that Rachel Dolezal business go?



Do you mean that you can't see many answers being forthcoming from those contributing to this thread? If so, why?

Or do you mean that you can't see many anwsers being forthcoming in terms of real-world outcomes? If so, why?
 
(If it was the former, well.... there have already been two posters offering suggestions by way of answer. So...)
 
If anyone across the pond in the UK is interested to know, we have our own insane gender legislation in America called the Equality Act — it wants to make gender identity supersede sex in federally funded education programs, and will also allow sports participation on the basis of a self identification of sex. It’s really quite amazing what is happening. We’ve allowed nonsense — literal nonsense — that everyone laughed at 5 years ago to somehow parasitize the good nature of people in to supportIng harmful ********.
 
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Since it appears you've opened up these questions for everyone, I'll have a go as well.


What's your view on untransitioned transwomen:


- competing in female sports?

Hard no. There is no scientific evidence that the physical advantages of male puberty and androgens go away on account of subjective gender identity alone.

- performing intimate medical and person treatments on females when the female has requested a female doctor/nurse/aide?

No. It makes perfect sense to prefer providers who understand what it is like to experience routine procedures (e.g. cervical smears) as a patient.

- being housed in female prisons?
Again, no. Prisons have enough problems without adding the need for pregnancy testing and obstetrics to the mix.

- qualifying for female shortlist positions or being counted as females for quotas?
Don't have a strong opinion on this, at least not without further information. What was the quota meant to accomplish?

- having access to female scholarships and grants?
Same as above.
 
If anyone across the pond in the UK is interested to know, we have our own insane gender legislation in America called the Equality Act — it wants to make gender identity supersede sex in federally funded education programs, and will also allow sports participation on the basis of a self identification of sex. It’s really quite amazing what is happening. We’ve allowed nonsense — literal nonsense — that everyone laughed at 5 years ago to somehow parasitize the good nature of people in to supportIng harmful ********.

This will mean the end of women’s professional and competitive sport in the US. A number of people in this thread have said they don’t care about this. I would like them to explain their reasoning to born women who have hitherto made a living from their sporting talents.
 
Do you mean that you can't see many answers being forthcoming from those contributing to this thread?

No, I'm expecting a less than stellar response from the people who believe trans women are actual women and should enjoy the exact same rights.

The sport alone is a no-brainer, as evinced by the alleged greatest woman tennis player of all time being trounced by a drunken Kraut who rated 203 in men's tennis. There are hundreds of men who could put on a dress and win every women's tournament.
 
Nope, not too much to ask.

What's your view on untransitioned transwomen:
- competing in female sports?
As you said "untransitioned," I'm 100% against it. For those who have had medical treatments, I think the criteria should be up to the governing bodies of the individual sports. If there were legislation on the issue, I think it should be to protect the right of sports leagues to make their own decisions in the matter, one way or the other. My reasoning on this is that a criteria or ban that makes sense for cycling may not make sense for, say, bowling.
- performing intimate medical and person treatments on females when the female has requested a female doctor/nurse/aide?
A female patient should get a female doctor/nurse if requested. (Aide, gets a little fuzzy and depends what you mean. The person who collects your vitals at the doctors office doesn't do anything intimate or invasive and makes little difference in my mind.)
- being housed in female prisons?
I general, I'm against it for the same safety reasons you cite, but there may be exceptions that should be considered on a case by case basis.

I think it's worth noting that this sub-issue highlights that there needs to be some sort of reform in the way prisons work to make prison safer for all prisoners. But that's another topic.
- qualifying for female shortlist positions or being counted as females for quotas?
I'm not aware of any actual quotas from, say, affirmative action programs. But there are programs, I think, that encouraging government agencies to award contracts to female and minority owned (or co-owned) businesses. I don't have a problem with trans people meeting that requirement, but not because they are women. Rather because they are a minority in their own right.
- having access to female scholarships and grants?
I'm not aware of government grants that are awarded to a specific sex, but I could be wrong. (I have seen PR campaigns encouraging girls to go into STEM fields, however.)

If the sponsor of the scholarship is private, I think they should have the right to set their own criteria. I could be swayed on this, however, depending on the nature of the organization.


The discussion always gets dragged back to toilets and changing rooms. Can we just set those aside as a case where there's probably a reasonable compromise available... and maybe focus on the areas where there is a real issue of safety and rights?

It always comes back to bathrooms because its something that affects people on an everyday basis. Most of us aren't going to prison or looking at scholarships on a regular basis.

But there are a whole slew of things you could add to the list.

What about a girls or all boys boarding schools?

Male strip clubs?
I had a couple friends from high school who were male strippers in their 20s. (This was in the 90s.) The local gentleman's club had a male stripper night once a week. The only men allowed through the door were the dancers and staff. I'm not sure what the policy would have been for trans-women, but should it be permissible for these events to be sex exclusive?

Race for the Cure?
It used to be that the Susan G. Komen Race For the Cure did not allow men to participate. There were some complaints because they excluded men who were themselves breast cancer survivors. (Yes, men can get breast cancer, but it's rare.) I believe they have changed this on a chapter by chapter basis. But the question is can a private organization have an event restricted by sex?
 
How about changing rooms in department stores? Given that trans men will be trying on men's clothing in the men's area it would not make much sense to have them cross back over to the women's department in order to try on prospective outfits.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think changing rooms in department stores are segregated at all. Every one I've been to has had separate stalls which are available for use by both sexes.

This is just my own experience, though. Are there places where the women's section has women's changing rooms and the men's section has men's changing rooms?
 
According to links posted above self-identification will no longer be the deciding factor. Which is what I and many others see as a critical issue. Is this or is it not true? If it’s true, it is a mighty blow to many TRAs.

It's not true because access issues are related to anti-discrimination laws and not gender recognition laws. I'm not being funny but it's been explained to you umpteen times.
 
The scrapping of the legislation means that male people who choose to only self-id as women, but not to go to a doctor to get a GRC, would not be able to change the M on their passport to an F and thereby would be legitimately excluded from at least some single-sex services for female people. The larger point, of course, was Boudicca's notion that she didn't have to present any actually sound arguments for her claims because they (she constantly refers to an "us" she presumes to represent) were winning the legal battle anyway and there was nothing others could do about it, which was demonstrated to be wrong by the scrapping of the self-id legislation.

No it doesn't mean that. You misunderstand the law.

That the most right-wing government of thickos we've ever had is not pro-Trans rights is hardly a surprise. We already saw that being a Tory or a Brexiteer are the main corelates with opposing trans rights.
 
The rejected (in England and Wales) reforms to the GRA had everything to do with transgender access to sex/gender segregated spaces because Self-ID expands the claimants from a few thousand transsexuals with gatekeeping to hundreds of thousands of "transgenders" with minimal gatekeeping.

The 2010 Equality Act allows women to discriminate against men because sex is a protected category.

P.S. Can you give an example of a "gender segregated space"? Do any actually exist and, if they do, how are they policed?

Does anyone who opposes trans rights actually take the time to read the laws they are discussing or even a summary of them? This is just totally wrong.
 
It's not true because access issues are related to anti-discrimination laws and not gender recognition laws. I'm not being funny but it's been explained to you umpteen times.

I’m not being funny either. Don’t you support self identification to be enough for someone to be a trans woman? And that self identified trans women should have access to places previously reserved for cis women?
 
Your entire claim is false. Civil Rights is about the extension of equal rights to others. It is NOT about taking away rights in order to give them to others. It has never been about that.

You keep using this false analogy, with the assumed premise that granting civil rights to black people actually reduced the rights of white people. It did not do so. It simply did not.

Of course it did. It took away the right of white people to feel safe in their own spaces away from black people. And many others.

On the other hand, granting the desired rights of transwomen actually does reduce the rights, safety, and privacy of females.

The right to feel safe away from people with penises?

Transpeople and their allies are LITERALLY asking that the existing sex-based protection of our civil rights be REINTERPRETED as "gender identity" instead of biological sex.

I see this a lot. But I cannot find any good sources to confirm or deny that these protections were ever based on sex, but rather they were based on being a 'man' or a 'woman' long before there was ever any discussion about sex/gender/trans issues.
 
Of course it did. It took away the right of white people to feel safe in their own spaces away from black people. And many others.



The right to feel safe away from people with penises?


I see this a lot. But I cannot find any good sources to confirm or deny that these protections were ever based on sex, but rather they were based on being a 'man' or a 'woman' long before there was ever any discussion about sex/gender/trans issues.

Do you see a problem with the highlighted? Because I don’t.
 
[...]

I see this a lot. But I cannot find any good sources to confirm or deny that these protections were ever based on sex, but rather they were based on being a 'man' or a 'woman' long before there was ever any discussion about sex/gender/trans issues.

?

All people considered in the past was sex. XX/XY. Hence, any segregation was based on sex.
 
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