Passenger killed by air marshall

"long-standing" is not historical? Seperation of church and state has been around in US government history since the very beginning. What history are you considering?

The history of the US.

I did. a number of times and in a number of ways.

How can you then argue that church and state are separate?

"Holy Trinity of Documents"? Reference, please?

A pun.


Oh, come on! You cannot possibly ignore that church and state are not separate in the US. That's naive.

False delema. The US was put together under a secular philosophy.

Nope. It was put together under a philosophy that respected religions, not just one. It specifically emphasized that there wasn't One True Religion. Every man, his religion.

Plenty, but you don't seem to find history historical.

Let me see your evidence, then.
 
Another false dilemma. It is the freedom to practice whatever religion you like, or none at all. No where in either the DoI or the US Constitution does it say that you have to believe in some God.

I'm not saying that.

No, but that isn't what I said. I'm denying that the evidence you have provided demonstrates that the US is a religious government. It is definitvely secular.

I'm not saying that the US is a religious government (although Dubya might disagree! Heck, I'd even go as far as to agree that the current government is a religious one). I'm saying that the US is founded on a religious tenet.
 
Since I've referred to this in the past, I can hardly be blamed for "ignoring" it.

Humor me, Claus, by answering it instead of dodging it.

How can you say religion runs the show in the US when your own country actually has a particular religion installed by, and drawing taxpayer money from, your government?

Why have you not raised a hue and cry about the blatant theocracy you live in?
 
The history of the US.
If you are going to refer to it, please learn it.

How can you then argue that church and state are separate?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.​

and the Wall of Seperation
I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.​

Or a rhetorical device to make a point? Should I take it literally, as you have done?

Oh, come on! You cannot possibly ignore that church and state are not separate in the US. That's naive.
What is our national religion? What church dictates state policy?

Nope. It was put together under a philosophy that respected religions, not just one. It specifically emphasized that there wasn't One True Religion. Every man, his religion.
And just what do you think secularism means, Claus?
Secularism is commonly defined as the idea that religion should not interfere with or be integrated into the public affairs of a society. It is often associated with the Age of Enlightenment in Europe, and plays a major role in Western society. The principles of separation of church and state in the United States and Laïcité in France draw heavily on secularism.​
 
With the 1969 Matrimonial Act, state recognition ceased to have such widespread implications. Since 1969, the Danish State has permitted the clerics of all other recognised communities, both Christian and Non-Christian, to perform legally valid wedding ceremonies, though they have a duty to report them to the civil authorities and they do not have the right to keep legal church registers.

Both forms of state recognition give tax benefits in the form of the right to receive regular tax-deductible financial contributions from private individuals.

However, such recognition is only granted when a number of more precisely defined organisational and theological/ideological requirements are fulfilled; for instance, the Church of Scientology has failed in its application for this kind of recognition.

So the state officially "recognizes" religions.

The clergy of the National Church are university trained at the state-run theological faculties in Copenhagen and Århus, which also offer an academic theological training to all, irrespective of ecclesiastical or confessional affiliation.

The state "educates" the clergy.

Since 1947 women have been able to apply for posts as priests and it looks as though they will finally represent a majority of the clergy. In 1995, the first female bishop was elected. During the 20th century, all formal connection between school and church has ceased; however, Christianity still has a place as a subject in school timetables.
All the above : http://denmark.dk/portal/page?_pageid=374,477831&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
Goodness....in schools?

(2) The teaching in the nine-year basic school shall cover three subject blocks, comprising for all pupils:

1) The humanities:

a) Danish at all form levels.

b) English at the 3rd to 9th form levels.

c) Christian studies at all form levels except for the form level where the confirmation preparation takes place.

d) history at the 3rd to 9th form levels.

e) social studies at the 8th and 9th form levels.

Goodness me....the old Folkestole Act ... How Danish kids get educated ....

It gets better...

6. (1) The central knowledge area of the subject of Christian studies shall be the Evangelical Lutheran Christianity of the Danish National Church. At the oldest form levels, the instruction shall furthermore comprise foreign religions and other philosophies of life.

(2) If requested, a child shall be exempted from participation in the instruction in the subject of Christian studies, when the person who has custody of the child submits a written declaration to the headteacher of the school to the effect that he/she will personally assume the responsibility of the child’s religious instruction. Exemption can normally only take effect from the beginning of a school year. If the child has reached the age of 15, exemption can only be granted with the child’s own consent.
http://eng.uvm.dk/publications/laws/folkeskole.htm?menuid=2010

So, compulsory religious education in the State Religion, whose minions are educated by the state. Sounds like a theocracy to me.

I understand now. Claus, not all countries have their government deeply involved in peoples beliefs, like Denmark.
 
Last edited:
Ed, you're missing the point! The Declaration of Independence uses the "C-word"! Obviously, we're the ones living in a theorcracy!
 
Oh, come on! You cannot possibly ignore that church and state are not separate in the US. That's naive.


This has got to be the silliest thing ...

-Does the government fund a religion (like Denmark)?

-Does the government educate priests (like Denmark)?

-Does the government mandate religious education (like Denmark)?

-Is religion mentioned in the Constitution (like Denmark)?

-Is religious education mandated as part of a teacher's education? (like Denmark)?

You are projecting. You live in a theocracy.
 
Ed, you're missing the point! The Declaration of Independence uses the "C-word"! Obviously, we're the ones living in a theorcracy!

Cu... really? Those founders were the rascals, weren't they.

Interesting how theocratic Denmark is though. I didn't realize.
 
Humor me, Claus, by answering it instead of dodging it.

How can you say religion runs the show in the US when your own country actually has a particular religion installed by, and drawing taxpayer money from, your government?

I'm not dodging it. I've referred you to the appropriate thread. Take it up there, if you have some new points to make.

Why have you not raised a hue and cry about the blatant theocracy you live in?

:dl:

You know nothing of the world you live in. Nothing.
 
If you are going to refer to it, please learn it.

I have yet to see you point out where I am wrong about American history.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.​

(So, that's how you do an indent. Use the INDENT tag. Who'd have thunk?)

"So help me god".

"In god we trust".

"Creator".

and the Wall of Seperation
I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.​

Ahemn. What is this? An official US document? If not, why can you bring those up, but I can't?

Or a rhetorical device to make a point? Should I take it literally, as you have done?

I can't make fun of America?

What is our national religion? What church dictates state policy?

Who said that there were these things?

And just what do you think secularism means, Claus?
Secularism is commonly defined as the idea that religion should not interfere with or be integrated into the public affairs of a society. It is often associated with the Age of Enlightenment in Europe, and plays a major role in Western society. The principles of separation of church and state in the United States and Laïcité in France draw heavily on secularism.​

"So help me god".

"In god we trust".

"Creator".
 
I'm not dodging it. I've referred you to the appropriate thread. Take it up there, if you have some new points to make.

You insist on not answering, then... There or here. Okay, gotcha.


:dl:

You know nothing of the world you live in. Nothing.

Maybe not, but at least I know a theocracy when I'm living in one, which puts me one up on you. ;)
 
So the state officially "recognizes" religions.

Sure. So?

The state "educates" the clergy.

It's an acknowledged education. Therefore, it receives public funds. Heck, even acupuncturists receive public funds.


Various religious beliefs are taught, not because the kids have to believe in them, but because they have to know about them. They learn about Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, whathaveyou.

That's a bad thing?

Goodness me....the old Folkestole Act ...

"Folkeskole". "Folkestole" = "Public chairs".

How Danish kids get educated ....

Yeah, and we are doing a hell of a lot better than American kids.

So, compulsory religious education in the State Religion, whose minions are educated by the state. Sounds like a theocracy to me.

Compulsory religious education in different religious beliefs. We are not churning out devout Christians.

I understand now. Claus, not all countries have their government deeply involved in peoples beliefs, like Denmark.

Come to Denmark, and I'll show you. You'll be surprised.
 
It gets better....

Section II. Status of Religious Freedom

Legal/Policy Framework

The Constitution provides for freedom of religion, and the Government generally respects this right in practice. The Government at all levels strives to protect this right in full and does not tolerate its abuse, either by governmental or private actors.

There is an official state religion. The Constitution stipulates that the Evangelical Lutheran Church is the national church, the reigning monarch shall be a member of it, and the state shall support it. The Evangelical Lutheran Church is the only religious organization that can receive state subsidies or funds directly through the tax system. Approximately 12 percent of the Church's revenue comes from state subsidy; most of the rest comes from the church tax that is paid only by members. No individual may be compelled to pay church tax or provide direct financial support to the national church or any other religious organization. Members of other faiths, notably Catholics, have argued that the system is unfair, and that the Government does not provide religious equality, despite providing religious freedom. Allowing other religious organizations to be given the same status and privileges as the Evangelical Lutheran Church would require changes to the Constitution. According to a poll conducted in the fall of 2003, 63 percent of citizens feel that the Evangelical Lutheran Church should have a special place in the Constitution, down from 68 percent in 1999.

Eleven Christian holidays are considered national holidays: Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter, Easter Monday, Common Prayer Day, Ascension, Pentecost, Whit Monday, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Christmas Day 2. The holidays do not have a negative impact on any religious groups.

Aside from the Evangelical Lutheran Church, the Government gives official status to religions in two ways: it "recognizes" religions by royal decree, and it "approves" religions under the 1969 Marriage Act. As of March, 12 religious organizations were recognized by royal decree, including: The Roman Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, and Russian Orthodox churches as well as Judaism, and 92 were approved, including several Islamic groups, members of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh-day Adventists, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christian Orthodox, Hindu, Baha'i, and Hara Krishna. By "approving" religions under the 1969 Marriage Act, the Government allows individually named priests to conduct officially recognized marriage ceremonies and thereby legally "approves" the religion.

Both recognized and approved religions enjoy certain tax exemptions. Other religious communities are entitled to practice their faith without any sort of licensing, but their marriage ceremonies are not recognized by the state and they are not granted tax-exempt status.

Guidelines, published in 1999, for approval of religious organizations established the following for religious organizations: a written text of the religion's central traditions, descriptions of its most important rituals, an organizational structure accessible for public control and approval, and constitutionally elected representatives who may be held responsible by the authorities. Additionally, the organization must "not teach or perform actions inconsistent with public morality or order." Scientologists did not seek official approval as a religious organization during the period covered by this report. Their first application for approval was made in the early 1970s and rejected; the second and third applications were made in 1976 and 1982 and both were denied. In mid-1997, the Scientologists filed a fourth application, which was suspended at their request in 2000. In suspending their application, the Scientologists asked the Ministry of Ecclesiastical Affairs to clarify the approval procedure; however, the Ministry told the Scientologists they must first submit an application before the Ministry can provide any feedback. Despite the Scientologist's unofficial status, the church maintains its European headquarters in Copenhagen.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35451.htm

Government "approves" religions based on their "guidelines". The King "must" be a member of the state religion....


Wowie zowie... a theocracy

Moreover 63% think that their religion is special... what a hoot.
 
It gets better....



Government "approves" religions based on their "guidelines". The King "must" be a member of the state religion....


Wowie zowie... a theocracy

Moreover 63% think that their religion is special... what a hoot.

No wonder Claus has to direct his venom at the US.... pointing it where it belongs must be too galling. It certainly explains his bitterness and Talibanesqe contempt of western freedoms.
 
Compulsory religious education in different religious beliefs. We are not churning out devout Christians.

Sorry, not what your official document says...

6. (1) The central knowledge area of the subject of Christian studies shall be the Evangelical Lutheran Christianity of the Danish National Church. At the oldest form levels, the instruction shall furthermore comprise foreign religions and other philosophies of life.

(2) If requested, a child shall be exempted from participation in the instruction in the subject of Christian studies, when the person who has custody of the child submits a written declaration to the headteacher of the school to the effect that he/she will personally assume the responsibility of the child’s religious instruction. Exemption can normally only take effect from the beginning of a school year. If the child has reached the age of 15, exemption can only be granted with the child’s own consent.
http://eng.uvm.dk/publications/laws/folkeskole.htm?menuid=2010

Hey...I'd be sensitive too!
 
Ahemn. What is this? An official US document? If not, why can you bring those up, but I can't?
Who said that? I thought we were talking about American history. These are the thoughts of Jefferson.

I can't make fun of America?
You're missing the point. Your pun was a rhetorical device to emphesize your argument. This is exactly what the writers of the DoI did. You insist on taking their rhetorical device literally, why not yours?

Who said that there were these things?
what do you think church and state not being seperate means?
"So help me god".
A traditional phrase.
"In god we trust".
Added due to anti-communist hysteria. Only tangentially related to religion.
"Creator".
Rhetorical device.

Got anything that is overtly religous, like "Jesus is the Savior of the USA"?
 

Back
Top Bottom