Tookie Williams: clemency denied

[Jocko]

This man who was just executed was a monster who deserved no support at all, but we should not cheapen ourselves by stooping to his level.

We did not stoop to his level. Equating the execution of Tookie Williams with his own crimes is fallacious on several levels. His victims did not have legal representation and 25 years of appeals; they were viciously shotgunned, not put painlessly to sleep, and while Tookie only profited $130 from his crime, the State of California spent untold riches keeping him alive, fed and safe for a quarter of a century.

Simply because two actions both result in a stilled pulse is no reason to equate them. Not even close.

 

[bob_kark]

Well put, Bob. I understand your views completely and I wish it could be otherwise, but I firmly believe that some people simply don't deserve to live, and people willing to kill a family or an unarmed man rate high on that list.

The problem with Democracy is that we're often asked to swallow those things the majority agree upon, but are directly opposed to our own sensibilities. I feel the same way about the war in Iraq where thousands upon thousands of INNOCENT people have died.

I respect where you're coming from. I don't exactly think of death row inmates as being these poor, misunderstood people who just need a second chance and its not much of a step to just say "to hell with em!" I can completely understand that because that was how I used to see things.

I suppose controversies like this will always exist in a democracy, this certainly isn't a topic where ignorance causes one group to swing one way or another. Its more an issue of personal moral values, like abortion or the War in Iraq, as you mentioned. Unfortunately, in a debate over personal moral values, you have as much chance changing the other person's mind as you do predicting the lotto numbers.

 

[casebro]

How many appeals can be done after an execution?

Here's a list of Illinois death row inmates exonerated recently (and it's more than the number actually executed here), and here is a breakdown for all states. It's an unacceptably high number, IMHO.

Heirs and estates Do make successful appeals and pardons. But how many inocents have actually been executed?

I take the list of exhonorations as proof that the system DOES work, the innocent were set free, weren't they?

 

[Jocko]

Heirs and estates Do make successful appeals and pardons. But how many inocents have actually been executed?

I take the list of exhonorations as proof that the system DOES work, the innocent were set free, weren't they?

This came up not long ago. I challenged Mark to demonstrate that an innocent had been executed, and he was able to produce a single story that, in the end, pointed to probable innocence, not proven innocence, of an executed prisoner.

Now, as a DP supporter, I understand that the odds clearly dictate an almost certainty that it has happened, and will eventually happen again. That said, I don't see that abolition of the DP is in any way a good idea. Improve the legal procedures, raise the standard of evidence, whatever. The two are not mutually exclusive, but setting the minimum standard at absolute perfection is pure madness.

This is the imperfect world we live in. Some don't like living in it, and that's fine... it's the ones who swear perfection is possible you have to keep an eye on.

 

[Tony]

The two are not mutually exclusive, but setting the minimum standard at absolute perfection is pure madness.

Not when you're dealing with innocent life. Allowing innocent people to die is pure madness.

 

[Jocko]

Not when you're dealing with innocent life. Allowing innocent people to die is pure madness.

Innocent people die every day, Tony, allowed or not. Your problem isn't with the DP, it's with mortality.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Jocko, why do you persist in either ignoring that innocent people are being scentenced to death, or not caring? Here is a listing of people who have been exonorated in the U.S. and the specifics regarding those cases.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=109

Here are some examples:

"37. Randall Dale Adams Texas Conviction 1977 Charges Dismissed 1989
Adams was convicted of killing a Dallas Police officer and sentenced to death. After the murder David Harris was arrested for the murder when it was learned that he was bragging about it. Harris, however, claimed that Adams was the killer. Adams trial lawyer was a real estate attorney and the key government witnesses against Adams were Harris and other witnesses who were never subject to cross examination because they disappeared the next day. On appeal, Adams was ordered to be released pending a new trial by the Texas Court of Appeals. The prosecutors did not seek a new trial due to substantial evidence of Adam's innocence. Adams case is the subject of the movie, The Thin Blue Line. (Ex Parte Adams, 768 S.W.2d 281 (Tex. Crim App. 1989), Time, 4/3/89, and ABA Journal, 7/89). "

Wrongly imprisoned for 12 years, and faced the death penalty.

"40. James Richardson Florida Conviction 1968 Acquitted 1989
Richardson was convicted and sentenced to death for the poisoning of one of his children. The prosecution argued that Richardson committed the crime to obtain insurance money, despite the fact that no such policy existed. The primary witnesses against Richardson were two jail-house snitches whom Richardson was said to have confessed to. Post-conviction investigation found that the neighbor who was caring for Richardson's children had a prior homicide conviction, and the defense provided affidavits from people to whom he had confessed. Richardson's conviction was overturned after further investigation by then-Dade County State Attorney General Janet Reno, which resulted in a new hearing. (Richardson v. State, 546 So.2d 1037 (1989). "

This case speaks for itself. "Innocent people die every day" you say. This is true. Sometimes, they do not die of disease or acccidental causes, but are deliberately killed. Sometimes those people are executed by our government. I do not sleep well at night.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Jocko, why do you persist in either ignoring that innocent people are being scentenced to death, or not caring? Here is a listing of people who have been exonorated in the U.S. and the specifics regarding those cases.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=109

Here are some examples:

"37. Randall Dale Adams Texas Conviction 1977 Charges Dismissed 1989
Adams was convicted of killing a Dallas Police officer and sentenced to death. After the murder David Harris was arrested for the murder when it was learned that he was bragging about it. Harris, however, claimed that Adams was the killer. Adams trial lawyer was a real estate attorney and the key government witnesses against Adams were Harris and other witnesses who were never subject to cross examination because they disappeared the next day. On appeal, Adams was ordered to be released pending a new trial by the Texas Court of Appeals. The prosecutors did not seek a new trial due to substantial evidence of Adam's innocence. Adams case is the subject of the movie, The Thin Blue Line. (Ex Parte Adams, 768 S.W.2d 281 (Tex. Crim App. 1989), Time, 4/3/89, and ABA Journal, 7/89). "

Wrongly imprisoned for 12 years, and faced the death penalty.

"40. James Richardson Florida Conviction 1968 Acquitted 1989
Richardson was convicted and sentenced to death for the poisoning of one of his children. The prosecution argued that Richardson committed the crime to obtain insurance money, despite the fact that no such policy existed. The primary witnesses against Richardson were two jail-house snitches whom Richardson was said to have confessed to. Post-conviction investigation found that the neighbor who was caring for Richardson's children had a prior homicide conviction, and the defense provided affidavits from people to whom he had confessed. Richardson's conviction was overturned after further investigation by then-Dade County State Attorney General Janet Reno, which resulted in a new hearing. (Richardson v. State, 546 So.2d 1037 (1989). "

This case speaks for itself. "Innocent people die every day" you say. This is true. Sometimes, they do not die of disease or acccidental causes, but are deliberately killed. Sometimes those people are executed by our government. I do not sleep well at night.

Do you notice the thing that both of your examples have in common? Neither was actually executed.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Official inveistigations into a person's innocence to tapper off once they have been executed.

 

[Jocko]

Jocko, why do you persist in either ignoring that innocent people are being scentenced to death, or not caring? Here is a listing of people who have been exonorated in the U.S. and the specifics regarding those cases.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=109

Here are some examples:

"37. Randall Dale Adams Texas Conviction 1977 Charges Dismissed 1989
Adams was convicted of killing a Dallas Police officer and sentenced to death. After the murder David Harris was arrested for the murder when it was learned that he was bragging about it. Harris, however, claimed that Adams was the killer. Adams trial lawyer was a real estate attorney and the key government witnesses against Adams were Harris and other witnesses who were never subject to cross examination because they disappeared the next day. On appeal, Adams was ordered to be released pending a new trial by the Texas Court of Appeals. The prosecutors did not seek a new trial due to substantial evidence of Adam's innocence. Adams case is the subject of the movie, The Thin Blue Line. (Ex Parte Adams, 768 S.W.2d 281 (Tex. Crim App. 1989), Time, 4/3/89, and ABA Journal, 7/89). "

Wrongly imprisoned for 12 years, and faced the death penalty.

"40. James Richardson Florida Conviction 1968 Acquitted 1989
Richardson was convicted and sentenced to death for the poisoning of one of his children. The prosecution argued that Richardson committed the crime to obtain insurance money, despite the fact that no such policy existed. The primary witnesses against Richardson were two jail-house snitches whom Richardson was said to have confessed to. Post-conviction investigation found that the neighbor who was caring for Richardson's children had a prior homicide conviction, and the defense provided affidavits from people to whom he had confessed. Richardson's conviction was overturned after further investigation by then-Dade County State Attorney General Janet Reno, which resulted in a new hearing. (Richardson v. State, 546 So.2d 1037 (1989). "

This case speaks for itself. "Innocent people die every day" you say. This is true. Sometimes, they do not die of disease or acccidental causes, but are deliberately killed. Sometimes those people are executed by our government. I do not sleep well at night.

Well look, Captain Emotion is in da hizzy. Okay, Cap, how are these people to be compensated? I'd like to know what 21 years of your life is worth. Please give me an exact dollar figure; since we're not talking death any more, you should be able to quantify it, can't you?

Well, can't you?

 

[Jocko]

Official inveistigations into a person's innocence to tapper off once they have been executed.

So, lack of evidence is evidence.

Uh-huh. Let me know when you have an argument to make that isn't rooted in feel-good emotion.... you know, the "warm fuzzies" so many DP opponents here have accused me of having.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

First of all I'm Mr. Emotion, not Captain Emotion. He wears a cape. Secondly, I and others in this thread have offered numerous points that are not based on emotion, which you have casually brushed off as unimportant because "innocent people die everyday."

 

[Mephisto]

First of all I'm Mr. Emotion, not Captain Emotion. He wears a cape.

I can only imagine what nickname Jocko has for me!

And we even agree on this topic.

 

[Tony]

Innocent people die every day, Tony, allowed or not.

This is non-sense. Innocent people die everyday so.....what?....we should just allow MORE to die?

 

[Tony]

Do you notice the thing that both of your examples have in common? Neither was actually executed.

In spite of the system, not because of it.

 

[WildCat]

Heirs and estates Do make successful appeals and pardons. But how many inocents have actually been executed?

I take the list of exhonorations as proof that the system DOES work, the innocent were set free, weren't they?

Almost all of them were only set free because DNA testing (strongly opposed by the prosecution, BTW) proved they had the wrong man. It strains belief that it was only after the advent of DNA testing in the last 20 years that wrongful death sentences were given. You're not really going to claim that, are you?

eta: Can you cite a single instance in which an estate or heir was allowed to appeal the case of an executed person?

 

[Tony]

First of all I'm Mr. Emotion, not Captain Emotion. He wears a cape. Secondly, I and others in this thread have offered numerous points that are not based on emotion, which you have casually brushed off as unimportant because "innocent people die everyday."

Isn't it striking how similar Bush supporters and Muslim terrorists are? Innocent life has zero value for these "people".

 

[Nyarlathotep]

In spite of the system, not because of it.

Irrelevant. If they weren't executed then they are not examples of people executed unjustly.

 

[Tony]

If they weren't executed then they are not examples of people executed unjustly.

No, it's not irrelevant. It highlights the flaws of your system and the fact that people have been wrongly convicted and executed.

 

[WildCat]

Irrelevant. If they weren't executed then they are not examples of people executed unjustly.

And as I have pointed out, most of these overturned convictions were the result of DNA testing and DNA testing alone. Do you really think it likely that no one was wrongly convicted, sentenced and executed before the advent of DNA testing?