Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Emily's Cat]

Yeah, measuring sexual arousal based on erections is very flawed. I can say having been a man in the past, we tend to get erections at the slightest things and sometimes completely randomly. It really does have a mind of it's own sometimes. And there have also been plenty of times I was sexually excited without a measurable physical reaction.

Not having a male sex drive anymore, I can see just how wildly fluctuating and intense it can be in comparison. It was more of a burden than anything. I don't miss it.

For goodness sake, don't you two know anything about sexual arousal at all? erections in males and vaginal wetness in women are only one sign of sexual arousal among several, and are not always present - especially when there is sexual dysfunction and as people age.

Nocturnal erection cycles (including morning wood), by the way, is a function of vasodilation, not sexual arousal, and is usually not accompanied by the other physical symptoms of arousal.

Physical symptoms of human fight-or-flight responses can also manifest as tumescence in men, and the euphorical rush of dopamine following the adrenaline from that survival response frequently produces sexual arousal.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Boudicca let me just speak plainly to you - I don’t hate you. my posts are hostile yes, this topic gets me heated up. but trust love, I don’t hate you or want you dead or harmed or whatever composite golem image of a ‘terf” You might have. just felt like I needed say that

I'll add on to this. Boudicca, I think you're a very nice person, and I wish you the happiness and comfort in life. I fully support you presenting and expressing yourself in whatever way makes you the most content.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Trans inclusion in athletics is probably going to remain a sticking point for many people who might otherwise be trans-accepting. I suspect that trans rights will only come to America if forced by the courts, just like gay marriage.

I will 100% support civil right protections for transgender people. I will march in public (after the pandemic is over) to secure that protection.

I will not, however, remove equal protections on the basis of sex, nor will I surrender my rights, privacy, and security as a female. Especially not on the basis of self-identification alone.

 

[Olmstead]

Would they? Including very masculine, muscular, bearded transmen that are sexually attracted to women? I find this hard to believe.

I think that might be the case. I think the assumption is that transmen are less likely to behave "inappropriately".

Appearance is kind of a red herring anyway. Where would you put transwomen that still look like men? Cis-women that look like men? Cis-men that look like women? Transvestites?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I think that might be the case. I think the assumption is that transmen are less likely to behave "inappropriately".

Appearance is kind of a red herring anyway. Where would you put transwomen that still look like men? Cis-women that look like men? Cis-men that look like women? Transvestites?

I'd like to see some evidence of that. These trans bathroom panic-mongers spend a lot of time worrying about trans invaders in the ladies room, but trans-men rarely get a mention.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Likewise, a UK poll shows that women are more likely than men to support trans rights.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

That's exactly the same poll I provided you earlier in the thread, which you dismissed.

Yes, in general women support transgender people more than men do. But what you keep ignoring is that when the topic comes around to self-identification alone, most women do NOT support it.

There is a lack of support for people to legally change their gender, and there is no substantial agreement for doing so without a medical diagnosis and without having lived as the target gender for a period of time. There is no general support for transwomen to compete in women's sports. And there is no general support for transgender people who have NOT undergone GRS using the changing rooms of their identified gender.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That's exactly the same poll I provided you earlier in the thread, which you dismissed.

Yes, in general women support transgender people more than men do. But what you keep ignoring is that when the topic comes around to self-identification alone, most women do NOT support it.

There is a lack of support for people to legally change their gender, and there is no substantial agreement for doing so without a medical diagnosis and without having lived as the target gender for a period of time. There is no general support for transwomen to compete in women's sports. And there is no general support for transgender people who have NOT undergone GRS using the changing rooms of their identified gender.

not yet. Polling of younger people shows we just have to wait for the bigots to fall in the grave. Very unfortunate for trans people right now, but a better future is on the horizon.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You, along with your allies here, know NOTHING about us and you continue to show it.

I tried to deal with my dysphoria through therapy and medication to help my depression and anxiety and only led to more and more alcoholism, until it got to the point where I knew I would die if I continued on and so I decided to transition.

Nearly four sober years later and I am far happier than I have ever been and everyone notices it. It's not like I don't still deal with depression and anxiety, but my dysphoria was only part of that (a big part but still), and transitioning relieved a lot of my hatred and disgust with myself to the point where I can have a normal life and not want to kill myself.

Transitioning works, it is as simple as that. And I support it for anybody who feels it is what they need to do to feel whole.

Boudicca, I think a nuance you might be missing is that you have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and you undertook treatment for it for a while before transitioning. I'm very happy that it is working for you, and that you are more comfortable and at ease, and no longer at risk for depression or suicide. I'm happy that you are thriving.

Because it works for you, however, doesn't mean that it's equally as effective for everyone. And nobody is even remotely suggesting that people for whom it is the best option should be denied treatment through transition.

There isn't really any evidence that transition without mental health support is effective for most people. And there is no evidence that transition on the basis of self-identification works at all.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yes. "I don't understand and I won't do the disservice of lying to you and saying I do, but I still support and love you and want to keep a dialog open so we can get to an understanding" is such a horrible philosophy. Can't wait for it die off.

Now just to wait for everyone to always agree about everything and we'll finally be in Utopia.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I ultimately don't give a crap about your opinions on us, as long as we have the law on our side to protect us from people like you.

What protection do you need the law to provide you here? Do you think that MisAndreG is going to physically attack you? Do you think she's going to rouse the internet to insist that you get fired from your job? Do you think she's going to threaten you with bodily harm or suggest that you deserve to be raped?

Exactly what protection do you think you need from females?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Someone else laid it out neater, but I'll steal it as my own.

Trans and cis women are two distinct subsets of the larger category "women". There are differences between these two subsets, but those differences don't make either not members of the women category.

The differences between cis and trans women are quite small compared to the differences between either subset of women and men.

Trans women are women, but that doesn't mean they are identical to cis women, who are also women.

And those similarities are... what? In what way are transwomen materially and substantially more like ciswomen than they are like cismen?

 

[Olmstead]

I'd like to see some evidence of that. These trans bathroom panic-mongers spend a lot of time worrying about trans invaders in the ladies room, but trans-men rarely get a mention.

Maybe transmen rarely get a mention because women don't mind the possibility of transmen in their women spaces? I don't know. There's no statistics on that anywhere.

 

[Emily's Cat]

They aren't listening to us, and don't want to.

Why should we listen to you when you repeatedly dismiss the concerns and challenges faced by females as being not real or as exaggerated?

 

[Ziggurat]

Trans and cis women are two distinct subsets of the larger category "women". There are differences between these two subsets, but those differences don't make either not members of the women category.

The differences between cis and trans women are quite small compared to the differences between either subset of women and men.

I still don't know what properties make one a woman or a man under this definition.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You need to learn the distinction between personal thoughts, and speech and actions that affect other people.

And those distinctions, as it relates to law are... ?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not one person has attempted to define women based on gender roles here. The whole point of the argument is to allow people to be and thrive in whatever identity they see fit for themselves.

As I tried to say before.... tread carefully on the women are defined by their biology line because the same narrow minded bigots who want to reject trans people will turn on women just as easily.

The same biology will be blamed for women's lack of representation in management, in STEM, and a whole host of other things.

You know, I'm a LOT more concerned about the research into "gendered brains" that are used to support trans ideology (despite being immaterial and non-predictive) having that affect than appeals to gender roles and biology that are already a reality for females to deal with.

 

[TomB]

It sounds like your position is that transwomen are men, but should be treated as women where practical to do so. And the rest of the debate is about what we can agree is practical.

Male. In fairness, if you are going to point out Suburban Turkey conflating sex and gender, it probably makes sense to use a set of terms that allows one to distinguish the two.

I realize that not everyone agrees on the terms for sex (male/female) and gender (man/woman) but we can either argue about terminology or agrue about issues. Issues are more interesting.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes sufficient "transition" when it comes to official recognition of gender.

The trans-excursionists that take an absolutist position should not be considered good-faith participants in such a conversation, as clearly the position is rooted in animus of trans people.

Uh-huh. Your treatment of people in this thread indicates that your above statement is false.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sure, as did mine. Like mine, I'm sure your public college was beholden to Title IX and other civil rights law, a burden not shared by private religious colleges.

Are you aware that Title IX has sex as a protected characteristic?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, the most sacred right of all, the right to not be around trans people.

Like I said, **** those dumb chicks who think they deserve rights. Don't they know they don't count as much as males do? Who the **** cares if their rights get taken away, they don't deserve them anyway, they're just worthless ******* females...