Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Emily's Cat]

Perhaps you could tell me how/why you think I did?

Because I don't think I did at all.

You were pointing out that the fundamental decision to be made wrt transgenderism - whether transgender identity is a valid, authentic lived condition, or whether it's the product of a disorder - is an impossible question to answer experimentally in an empirical manner.

I agree entlrely with this.

But your argument appears to me to be essentially along these lines:

If we cannot objectively prove or measure the answer with empirical data, it's therefore impossible to conclude that transgender identity is an authentic, valid condition. And that therefore transgenderism should continue to be regarded as the product of a disorder.

No. Your "therefore" is incorrect. I don't care whether it's considered a disorder or not. What I do care about is the fact that it literally cannot be observed by any outside entity. It is entirely based on someone's internal perception of their own mind, divorced from external reality.

You are the one who keeps arguing that it is definitively not a disorder, it is a medical condition. You argue this with an appeal to authority - an authority which has proven to be non-scientific on many, many occasions.

I don't care whether it's a mental disorder. Until there is actually some non-mental diagnostic method for fairly clear determination of the condition, it is irrelevant whether it's a a mental disorder or a condition.

Where my largest objection comes into play is that society, and especially females in society, are being asked to make fundamental changes to our language, our view of our selves, the role of our biological sex and lived experience as an element of our identities, our access to safe and private spaces free of males, our access to systems and services set aside to support increased equity of females in society, etc... based on faith.

At the end of the day, it does not matter to me whether it's a disorder or a condition. It is something inside of someone else's mind that is entirely self-perceived, that cannot be measured or validated. It defies explanation or description. It is an ephemeral feeling that I and other females are being asked to affirm and accept... and on the basis of this indescribable sensation, we are asked to subordinate our needs and desires to those of people who are male. Not just that though - we're being told we cannot put any requirements on those male people at all - we cannot require a diagnosis and medical treatment, we cannot require that they present as female, we cannot even require that they shave their beards. We are being told that any male person who claims to be a woman must be accepted as a woman in every sense and be granted to every female space without question.

Nobody who is arguing for trans rights seems to be able or willing to answer the following questions:

1) What rights do transgender people lack that cispeople currently have?
2) What rights are transgender people asking to be granted?
3) what are the attributes or characteristics that ciswomen and transwomen have in common, that make them parts of the set of women, but which are not shared with either cismen or transmen (and vice versa).

 

[lionking]

I apologize, because this is going to be long. Bear with me.

I'll start off with saying that for young children (perhaps until near puberty) there is no reason to segregate at all as their physical development at that point doesn't bring too many issues.

My daughter didn't start sports until 7th grade (age 12 for those outside the US). She started Volleyball and softball at that time. She played two years of Volleyball in middle school, three years of park district softball, two years of high school (Sophomore and Junior), and two years of club softball (Graduated as a Junior). She also did two years of competitive cheer-leading (Freshman and sophomore years).

Now, the star player on her 7th and 8th grade volleyball teams was a girl who was taller than the rest. She also played basketball and went on to play for Ohio State in college. In junior high, I'm pretty sure she would have outplayed anyone on the boys team. At that point she had an advantage in height and strength. But by high school, those same boys had overtaken her. She would not have made the men's basketball team at either high school in town.

But she was considered the top female basketball player in the area and one of the top players in the state.

High school sports are not low level social activities. They are very serious and they are what feed into the high level sports in college and the pros.

Similarly, if softball were not sex segregated, neither my daughter nor any other player on her team (several of whom played in college) would have made the high school team. The next thirteen boys who didn't make the cut for baseball would have. (The sports are different, but similar enough to cross over.) This is all in the age range of 14-18.

It's not just the batting. When my daughter was 18, I watched one of her then boyfriends slow pitch games. This was essentially a beer league with guys of, shall we say, questionable fitness. My daughter was an excellent fielder with great wheels. But these guys playing casually had speed in the outfield that ran circles around the fasted of the girls even in the higher level travel teams I saw. Their skills left something to be desired, but physically...no contest.

My point is that the advantage is HUGE between males and females. In principle I have no problem with a trans-woman competing with the girls, but I think the parity/lack of advantage needs to be demonstrated, preferable in individual case judgements by the various leagues. I don't think a one size fit all standard is fair to anyone, but it sure is easier to write into a rule.

Also, around here, volleyball is huge. For girls. There are no boys' clubs male teams in high school or nearby universities. But there was a boy who wanted to play. So the prominent local club took him and made an agreement with the other clubs with some conditions on how he could play. He could only play back row, where his advantages were lesser (height is less desirable in the back row) and I think he could not play libero. It's wasn't a transgender situation, but it's an example of an accommodation made for an individual case.

I agree with this. High school is where young people with ability develop and where some become professional athletes. Complete segregation of boys and girls in sport in high school will be the death knell of women's sport. Yeah, I know some here say "so what?". I have contempt for this attitude.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I generally have contempt for the attitude that dismisses the concerns of females as being not real or not important enough to merit consideration.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I was on a swim team for a while when I was younger. Swim meets were age-banded for children up to age 14. After that they were both age and sex banded. There was no material difference in physical performance before puberty. But once puberty hit, the difference was significant and nearly immediate.

To be fair, the 13 and 14 year old girls were better swimmers than the boys of the same age. By 16, however, that had flipped completely.

 

[TomB]

To add to my previous post....

In Illinois there are certain medical conditions for which the treatment can make you ineligible for sports. For example, my daughter was diagnosed with ADHD. At one point the doctor prescribed adderall. Adderall is a banned substance and she would have had to apply for a waiver to compete. She elected to not take the adderall and continue playing softball.

There are a number of medical conditions which can make one ineligible. In volleyball, if you have a finger splint, you are ineligible, as I recall, not because of safety, but because the splint can confer an advantage when hitting.

 

[lionking]

I was on a swim team for a while when I was younger. Swim meets were age-banded for children up to age 14. After that they were both age and sex banded. There was no material difference in physical performance before puberty. But once puberty hit, the difference was significant and nearly immediate.

To be fair, the 13 and 14 year old girls were better swimmers than the boys of the same age. By 16, however, that had flipped completely.

Absolutely. I was an okay, but hardly champion swimmer. At 17 I could swim 100 mtrs in under 60 seconds. Blown away by a decent male swimmer, representing Australia if a woman.

 

[lionking]

I generally have contempt for the attitude that dismisses the concerns of females as being not real or not important enough to merit consideration.

Collateral damage...….

 

[TomB]

You were pointing out that the fundamental decision to be made wrt transgenderism - whether transgender identity is a valid, authentic lived condition, or whether it's the product of a disorder - is an impossible question to answer experimentally in an empirical manner.

Is this even a valid (or perhaps relevant) dichotomy?

Obviopusly transgenderism is a "valid, authentic lived condition." I don't even think that's a question.

The question is if it's the same valid, authentic lived condition as being a biological female. And then to what extent either of these lived conditions contributes to being a "woman."

Note that I said "same" and not "equivilent." Regardless of the answer to the latter, both lived experiences are equally valid.

Actually, every lived experience is valid as that's a large part of what builds each individual's identity. Is there such thing as an "invalid lived experience" assuming someone actually lived it?

 

[Robin]

4) I therefore think that by far the best (the most reliable and credible) means of informing our own personal judgement on this issue is to start from the premise of the judgement of the World's experts in the relevant field.

So, in 1972, I should have accepted the judgement of the World's experts that homosexuality was a disorder?

So I must have been wrong in coming to the conclusion that their judgement made no sense whatsoever.

Bear in mind that, in 1972, I had no way of knowing that those experts in the field would come to their senses one year later.

 

[Robin]

Absolutely. I was an okay, but hardly champion swimmer. At 17 I could swim 100 mtrs in under 60 seconds. Blown away by a decent male swimmer, representing Australia if a woman.

It frequently happened that I would finish in front of the first woman in a half marathon so that, if I had competed as a woman, I might have picked up a few trophies.

And, back then, it would not have been dishonest for me to say that the gender I felt most affiliation with was female.

Nevertheless, I would still have entered those races as a man.

 

[Sherkeu]

I generally have contempt for the attitude that dismisses the concerns of females as being not real or not important enough to merit consideration.

I agree.

Females are designed to produced ova, whether or not they actually can do it. Males are designed to produce sperm, whether or not they actually can or have motile ones.
Intermediate anomalies are just that, anomalies, like any other rare defect in embryonic development. Stuff happens.

If you are designed at birth to produce sperm, you are Male. Period.

If you are homosexual, well that is something seen in nature all the time. We can quantify it, study it, collect data, and see the behavior in other animals. Previous prejudice comes from humans outdated thinking we are these 'special' creatures' so far apart from other animals.

Is the same true for transgender?
Do other primates also show clear signs of being gender dysphoric?
Other mammals?

It wouldnt make them the "other sex" but it would go a bit to explain the prevalence in the rest of the animal kingdom.

 

[Garb]

I agree.

Females are designed to produced ova, whether or not they actually can do it. Males are designed to produce sperm, whether or not they actually can or have motile ones.
Intermediate anomalies are just that, anomalies, like any other rare defect in embryonic development. Stuff happens.

If you are designed at birth to produce sperm, you are Male. Period.

If you are homosexual, well that is something seen in nature all the time. We can quantify it, study it, collect data, and see the behavior in other animals. Previous prejudice comes from humans outdated thinking we are these 'special' creatures' so far apart from other animals.

Is the same true for transgender?
Do other primates also show clear signs of being gender dysphoric?
Other mammals?

It wouldnt make them the "other sex" but it would go a bit to explain the prevalence in the rest of the animal kingdom.

Do other animals have "genders" as we describe them as humans?

Are gender and sex the exact same?

 

[d4m10n]

For the sake of encouraging a good faith effort from all sides...

1) What rights do transgender people lack that cispeople currently have?

Where I live (in the American Midwest) transgender individuals may be denied the right to compete, excrete, or disrobe with people of the same gender as themselves. This is at least in part b/c these activities were originally segregated by sex rather than gender.

2) What rights are transgender people asking to be granted?

See above.

3) what are the attributes or characteristics that ciswomen and transwomen have in common, that make them parts of the set of women, but which are not shared with either cismen or transmen (and vice versa).

No idea! [emoji56]

 

[Ron Obvious]

Jeez, I can't believe this thread is still going. As far as I can tell, nothing new has been said by either side and no minds have been changed nor are they likely to be.

 

[d4m10n]

Jeez, I can't believe this thread is still going. As far as I can tell, nothing new has been said by either side and no minds have been changed nor are they likely to be.

Now I see where you get your surname. [emoji28]

 

[Sherkeu]

Do other animals have "genders" as we describe them as humans?

Are gender and sex the exact same?

You are perhaps asking the wrong person. In this thread the idea that there are distinct differenceces is determining 'sex' are in question...for humans.

I posit that it is binary, male and female.

Gender can be what society wants.

But some people have moved their arguments into the biological 'sex' category so that being 'female' can now be someone born with male genitalia.

All the language is quite muddled with no one having a good explanation for females having a penis and being 100% just as female as those born with a vagina/ovaries/XX chromosomes.

 

[Ron Obvious]

Now I see where you get your surname. [emoji28]

Yes, there's a reason I got that nickname many years ago.

Although, strictly between us, it was only because I used to start my sentences with "Obviously," as lot and my friends were Python fans.

Obviously I have a new set of friends now.

 

[8enotto]

Jeez, I can't believe this thread is still going. As far as I can tell, nothing new has been said by either side and no minds have been changed nor are they likely to be.

It has been educational. I live in a place with low tolerance for diversity and won't likely have much contact with any other mindset.

Its very interesting to read someone explaining another point of veiw and maybe how they got there. Doesn't matter if it makes little sense to me or whatever.

Its something I won't get locally from anyone I know.

 

[MisAndreG]

maybe someone who is smarter than I am can break this down for me. So the best and largest studies on trans treatment (hormone and surgery) Branstrom and Dhejne found that there was no benefit for ppl diagnosed with a “gender incongruence”. The treatments don’t reduce anxiety or depression and increase suicidality and all cause mortality. so what the hell are we doing to these ppl? My goodness we’re destroying ppl because of what? What reason?

 

[8enotto]

There are many others building careers on trans issues. It pays the bills.6