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Wikipedia used for libel.

Britanica is in trouble

Encarta isn't exactly makeing microsoft a vast amount of money.

If the enclyopedia has a future at all it is increasingly look like that future is wikipedia or something like it (and realisticaly wikipedia has a massive headstart).

Neither Brittanica nor Encarta is in enough "trouble" that it's unclear whether they will continue to update and release their encyclopediae in the forseeable future. It seems that their DVD encyclopedias, with regular updates from online, manage well enough. If such collections of peer-reviewed articles, compiled by accountable researchers, should give way in the future to the type of "information"-gathering that wikipedia represents, it will certainly be a step backwards.
 
Then that's the problem. If Wikipedia cannot be trusted, then what is it? What are people (some are very dedicated people) contributing to? If people looking for information are being told that they cannot trust any information they see on wikipedia, then what purpose does it have?

One conversation I'd like to have is "What are expertise and scholarship and why are they important in a free society?"

A small sidetrack. Some months ago, I read "Telling Lies About Hitler", an account of the David Irving libel trial, written by Richard Evans, a noted historian who was one of the expert witnesses used in the trial.

The point of the trial for most was about whether the Holocaust of the Jews actually occurred and why do some people cast doubt upon it? For Richard Evans, the real point was about the historical record, the role of scholarship and expertise, the need for review.

In David Irving was a person of no academic record conducting detailed and painstaking work into the history of the Third Reich. He produced reams of new information and data that no-one else had come across and made lots of money and notoriety based upon the claims he made upon those records made in thick book after thick book. He even called it "Real History" and described himself as a "Real Historian".

Now, for Evans, the questions were not about Irving's academic prowess, but about scholarship and accuracy. Did his claims derive solely from a dispassionate reading entirely of source materials as he claimed? Evans pointed out that historians often made errors of judgment when examining source documents, especially if they were inexperienced or writing to a particular conclusion.

The key part for me, was expert review: Irving would have none of it. All of his works were for public publication, and none were academically previewed. Some were reviewed after the fact, but publicity and notoriety drowned out the reasoned arguments of a few scholars and most historians simply ignored his political statements and his books while praising his research skills. Irving regarded himself as above expert review and had no formal training in scholarship.

Now back to Wikipedia. Once again we have no expert preview. Once again Wikipedia publishes to the public only (and instantly!). Once again the expertise of people in various subjects is drowned out by publicity and notoriety. Even more incredibly we are told that it is the responsibility of the subject to ensure accuracy and fairness, not the writer or writers or even the publisher which proclaims itself to be merely a channel with only a minimal reactive filter.

There needs to be a debate about this. The principles of any free society depends upon the truthfulness of knowledge on which its citizens are informed, and its polticians instructed via the ballot box. If Wikipedia is not it, then what is it?

Looking at the Skepticwiki, I read the article of the fallacy of Equivocation:


Equivocation is an informal logical fallacy where a participant uses a word in two different senses during the same argument in such a way as to create confusion.
This is a fallacy because words have multiple meanings that may be unrelated.

Now it appears to me that Wikipedia uses equivocation in the way it describes itself as "free". There are several senses of the word: one is "available for anyone to read", another is "costs no money to use". But Wikipedia, I think, equivocates those two meanings with another sense of the word "free", which is subtely used by people advocating open source software:

"Free from influence from corporate or large financial institutions, political interference by vested interests or proprietary control, being instead a common ownership, giving maximum choice to the user or consumer, a beacon of liberty and individualism as well as being non-partisan"

I wonder...
 
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Good point, and that's the weird and pernicious thing about Wikipedia. The more popular a subject, a) the more people are editing it and the more likely it is to be (at least essentially correct, and b) the easier it is to find independent information about the subject. What all that ends up meaning is that the more necessary it is to have an article at all the less likely it is to be correct.

Not true. There are two flaws in you anaylsis. The first is the power of search engins. Wikipedia articles on a popular subject only really become popular when they get to the top of search engine results. When they do it means there is little else around.

The second is the issue of time. Recent popular subjects have been Pope Benedict XVI and Hurricane Katrina. In both cases wikipedia had the the first encyopedia style artice rather than news reports. If you wanted a simple way to catch up on the Hurricane Katrina story wikipedia was one of the best availible.

Finialy wikipedia does have a system for recogniseing good articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_featured_articles
 
Neither Brittanica nor Encarta is in enough "trouble" that it's unclear whether they will continue to update and release their encyclopediae in the forseeable future. It seems that their DVD encyclopedias, with regular updates from online, manage well enough.

Britannica took a hammering from encarta. It may survive but it was close. A lot of encyopedias did fold.

If such collections of peer-reviewed articles, compiled by accountable researchers, should give way in the future to the type of "information"-gathering that wikipedia represents, it will certainly be a step backwards.

Journals are not going anywhere (well hopefully they will go electronic and down in price but nothing currently threatens there existance).

I've run accross reports of a project to create a peer reviewed enclyopedia based on wikipedia content. The bad news is that the project (if it is still current) is being run by the moonies.

Wikipedia is here. What are you going to do about it?
 
Not true. There are two flaws in you anaylsis. The first is the power of search engins. Wikipedia articles on a popular subject only really become popular when they get to the top of search engine results. When they do it means there is little else around.
A wikipedia article is on the first page of results for the Google search term "Iran." Also "Franklin Roosevelt." And "string theory." In fact, of the seven things I threw into google off the top of my head the wikipedia article was on the first page of six (exception: Iraq). You are factually incorrect.

The second is the issue of time. Recent popular subjects have been Pope Benedict XVI and Hurricane Katrina. In both cases wikipedia had the the first encyopedia style artice rather than news reports. If you wanted a simple way to catch up on the Hurricane Katrina story wikipedia was one of the best availible.
Just peachy. That says nothing interesting about how factually correct or incorrect those articles might have been.
 
A wikipedia article is on the first page of results for the Google search term "Iran." Also "Franklin Roosevelt." And "string theory." In fact, of the seven things I threw into google off the top of my head the wikipedia article was on the first page of six (exception: Iraq). You are factually incorrect.

Can you show other online articles that are better

Just peachy. That says nothing interesting about how factually correct or incorrect those articles might have been.

Since there are normaly plently of media reports around generaly pretty good. No worse than the media.
 
Then that's the problem. If Wikipedia cannot be trusted, then what is it? What are people (some are very dedicated people) contributing to? If people looking for information are being told that they cannot trust any information they see on wikipedia, then what purpose does it have?

I tells you the kind of information that is out there.

One conversation I'd like to have is "What are expertise and scholarship and why are they important in a free society?"

A small sidetrack. Some months ago, I read "Telling Lies About Hitler", an account of the David Irving libel trial, written by Richard Evans, a noted historian who was one of the expert witnesses used in the trial.

The point of the trial for most was about whether the Holocaust of the Jews actually occurred and why do some people cast doubt upon it? For Richard Evans, the real point was about the historical record, the role of scholarship and expertise, the need for review.

In David Irving was a person of no academic record conducting detailed and painstaking work into the history of the Third Reich. He produced reams of new information and data that no-one else had come across and made lots of money and notoriety based upon the claims he made upon those records made in thick book after thick book. He even called it "Real History" and described himself as a "Real Historian".

Now, for Evans, the questions were not about Irving's academic prowess, but about scholarship and accuracy. Did his claims derive solely from a dispassionate reading entirely of source materials as he claimed? Evans pointed out that historians often made errors of judgment when examining source documents, especially if they were inexperienced or writing to a particular conclusion.

The key part for me, was expert review: Irving would have none of it. All of his works were for public publication, and none were academically previewed. Some were reviewed after the fact, but publicity and notoriety drowned out the reasoned arguments of a few scholars and most historians simply ignored his political statements and his books while praising his research skills. Irving regarded himself as above expert review and had no formal training in scholarship.

Now back to Wikipedia. Once again we have no expert preview. Once again Wikipedia publishes to the public only (and instantly!). Once again the expertise of people in various subjects is drowned out by publicity and notoriety. Even more incredibly we are told that it is the responsibility of the subject to ensure accuracy and fairness, not the writer or writers or even the publisher which proclaims itself to be merely a channel with only a minimal reactive filter.

Wikipedia does have review on a lot of articles. Watchlists insure that. You can look at the history and see how long any version has been around for and how many edits there have been.

There needs to be a debate about this. The principles of any free society depends upon the truthfulness of knowledge on which its citizens are informed, and its polticians instructed via the ballot box. If Wikipedia is not it, then what is it?

Work in progress.

Now it appears to me that Wikipedia uses equivocation in the way it describes itself as "free". There are several senses of the word: one is "available for anyone to read", another is "costs no money to use". But Wikipedia, I think, equivocates those two meanings with another sense of the word "free", which is subtely used by people advocating open source software:

No we are very clear on this point. Wikipedia is free as in speach and free as in beer.

"Free from influence from corporate or large financial institutions, political interference by vested interests or proprietary control, being instead a common ownership, giving maximum choice to the user or consumer, a beacon of liberty and individualism as well as being non-partisan"

I wonder...

For the most part wikipedia is. Certianly we have been able to handle the efforts of outside companies and politicians to influnce articles.
 
I tells you the kind of information that is out there.

I'm not sure I'm happy with this response.

I mean -- it tells me the kind of information that's out there. False information. Okay, now I know that false information is out there.

First, I knew that before I started reading; I've been around the block a few times already, and I started on solid food quite some time ago. Second, and more to the point -- why are we going out of our way to distribute false information?

Wikipedia is like reading a newspaper article without knowing which newspaper it's from. We can argue all we like about the editorial merits of the Times versus vs. the Telegraph versus the Wall Street Journal,-- but we're also talking about the New York Daily News, the Daily Mirror and the National Enquirer.

At least with the Mirror I know what I'm reading is crap. How am I supposed to know whether I can trust this particular Wikipedia article or not? If if the answer is that I can't trust anything, why are people writing it?


Wikipedia does have review on a lot of articles. Watchlists insure that. You can look at the history and see how long any version has been around for and how many edits there have been.

How does this ensure quality and accuracy? The articles in the Mirror and the Enquirer are also very closely edited. They're simply wrong, because the readership (and editorship) demands sensationalism and flashy presentation over factual accuracy.
 
Can you show other online articles that are better
What on the great green earth does this have to do with your earlier assertion that wikipedia articles only become popular when they show up early in search results, and that that happens when "there is little else around?" That was your statement, and it was just as invented from whole cloth as your made up story about conspiracy theorists targeting Mr. Siegenthaler. You are, and I don't say this lightly, less accurate than wikipedia.

Since there are normaly plently of media reports around generaly pretty good. No worse than the media.
What a high standard you set. :rolleyes:
 
I'm not sure I'm happy with this response.

I mean -- it tells me the kind of information that's out there. False information. Okay, now I know that false information is out there.

First, I knew that before I started reading; I've been around the block a few times already, and I started on solid food quite some time ago. Second, and more to the point -- why are we going out of our way to distribute false information?

No. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystal_display

Tells you what terms you need to look up if you want to find out more about Liquid crystal displays.


How does this ensure quality and accuracy? The articles in the Mirror and the Enquirer are also very closely edited. They're simply wrong, because the readership (and editorship) demands sensationalism and flashy presentation over factual accuracy.

Well we don't really care about sensationalism and appearence is mostly not a problem. Wikipedia has a lot of people are fact obssessed. For example trains spoters do seem to know a worrying amount about trains. Students do appear to know something about their subjects. A worrying number of people appear to care about Exploding whales.
 
Well we don't really care about sensationalism and appearence is mostly not a problem.

Yes, but you demonstrably don't care about accuracy either. Any edit, no matter how ludicrous, will be published immediately. Shall I go change Pluto's orbital parameters and put it somewhere in the asteroid belt? (No problem -- consider it done.)

Wikipedia has a lot of people are fact obssessed. For example trains spoters do seem to know a worrying amount about trains.

And Neo-nazis do seem to "know" a lot about Jews and their conspiracy to rule the world.

Obsession is a poor guide to accuracy.
 
What on the great green earth does this have to do with your earlier assertion that wikipedia articles only become popular when they show up early in search results, and that that happens when "there is little else around?" That was your statement, and it was just as invented from whole cloth as your made up story about conspiracy theorists targeting Mr. Siegenthaler. You are, and I don't say this lightly, less accurate than wikipedia.

Iran is second to last on the page. Franklin Roosevelt is solidly behind US goverment sources.

Early in search results means in the top three (remeber most people don't look beyond that). What makes you think there is a hudge amount of info around? Remeber a lot of the internet is worse than wikipedia.

Heck the Iran article gets beaten out by a vacant domain.

What a high standard you set. :rolleyes:

Not much else we can do. Can't send out journalists.
 
Not much else we can do. Can't send out journalists.

Um, this is incorrect.

In fact, it's the central point.

You may not be able to send out journalists, but you (collectively) can certainly critically evaluate the news reports that are received, assess their credibility, and prepare a collective report that reflects an expert consensus on the overall reports.

And furthermore, you (collectively) can ensure that the person responsible for collating, summarizing, evaluating, and writing the collective report knows his arse from his elbow.

This is, in fact, fairly standard practice among most media sources, as well as government information agencies of all stripes, ranging from Her Majesty's Foreign Office to various three-initial agencies that don't officially exist. Part of why the CIA (and US intelligence generally) got hammered in the world press in the Iraq aftermath was because so much of what they had presented was simply clipped wholesale from varoius media reports, with no attempt to verify or validate what had been clipped. (Look, for example, about the various Niger "yellowcake" allegations.)

People lie. Newsreporters lie. Smart people know this. If Wikipedia wants to be a credible source, it needs to stop simply passing on and retelling lies that other people tell it.

Wikipedia has no built-in fact checking. When someone tells Wikipedia a lie, that lie is republished and redistributed instantly. If someone happens to be watching that particular page, and they have the expertise to recognize and correct the lie, and they're not too terribly busy at the time, then the lie will be belatedly corrected.

But that's three if's. Wikipedia hopes that all of them are true -- but it actively supports none of them.
 
Um, this is incorrect.

In fact, it's the central point.

You may not be able to send out journalists, but you (collectively) can certainly critically evaluate the news reports that are received, assess their credibility, and prepare a collective report that reflects an expert consensus on the overall reports.

And furthermore, you (collectively) can ensure that the person responsible for collating, summarizing, evaluating, and writing the collective report knows his arse from his elbow.

We don't we still can't do any better than the media we are sourceing.

This is, in fact, fairly standard practice among most media sources, as well as government information agencies of all stripes, ranging from Her Majesty's Foreign Office to various three-initial agencies that don't officially exist. Part of why the CIA (and US intelligence generally) got hammered in the world press in the Iraq aftermath was because so much of what they had presented was simply clipped wholesale from varoius media reports, with no attempt to verify or validate what had been clipped. (Look, for example, about the various Niger "yellowcake" allegations.)

That was from MI6/5 originaly

People lie. Newsreporters lie. Smart people know this. If Wikipedia wants to be a credible source, it needs to stop simply passing on and retelling lies that other people tell it.

We do what we can but when it comes to major news events all we can do is look for common factors chose the most reliable sources and hope that they have got it right.

Wikipedia has no built-in fact checking. When someone tells Wikipedia a lie, that lie is republished and redistributed instantly. If someone happens to be watching that particular page, and they have the expertise to recognize and correct the lie, and they're not too terribly busy at the time, then the lie will be belatedly corrected.

I can revert a page a lot faster than you can edit it.

But that's three if's. Wikipedia hopes that all of them are true -- but it actively supports none of them.

That is not completely true. While it is true that the mediawiki softwear is pretty open some of our adons and anti vandalism tools are less so.
 
Just out of curiosity: Who, on this board, do you consider not to be a "true-believer"?
Most people here tend to have a fairly well-balanced worldview and strong skepticism for most issues, even of their own personal beliefs (for those religious members of the forum); but even of those, a few have issues in which they completely set aside their skepticism and simply "drink the Kool-ade". They defend their pet issue with all the blind acceptance and convoluted justification of a religious fanatic.

The obvious extreme case was Kumar, who pretty much believed anything uncritically. But there are others here that hold pretty unassailable beliefs that completely discount any criticism or opposition. In the issue of Wikipedia, Geni is definitely of the "true-believer" persuasion; and has consistently failed to provide adequate support for any of his claims regarding Wikipedia, nor managed to adequately address any of the criticisms. Not much different from any of the other dotcom-bubble techno-utopians.
 
Now if luchog had chosen one of the serious media sources that have been laying into us for the last week I would have had more than superficial critisms to deal with and there for would have needed to make more througher responces
You mean the Wired article posted here, whose points you have yet to adequately address?
 
The Register article quoted in the OP said:

The libeller was outed not by Wikipedia guardians, but by a prominent critic of the site who has been earned himself a lifetime Wikipedia ban - researcher Daniel Brandt.

I had to look at the article to make sure, but yes, it really does say "who has been earned himself". Don't these guys have grammar checkers?
 
We do what we can but when it comes to major news events all we can do is look for common factors chose the most reliable sources and hope that they have got it right.
You actually don't even do that. You imply the following: "We have people that we have screened and hired, and are known to possess the skills and experience necessary to research various news sources and perform a satisfactory job of creating an accurate story."

The reality is this: "We let anybody read anything anywhere, and make any changes at any time."

Which one would you trust more?
 
I can revert a page a lot faster than you can edit it.
Which is too late. If someone has already read it between the edit and the revert, they have obtained incorrect information from Wikipedia.

If people are going to trust it as a resource, the process needs to change. It is not a model that can be relied on to consistently provide highly accurate information.
 
You mean the Wired article posted here, whose points you have yet to adequately address?

Where? The search function says that the word Wired only appears in this thread in your post.
 

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