Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Elaedith]

A lot of studies seem to suffer from lack of homosexual non-trans controls. Even though they seem quite relevant, if not given puberty blockers then the vast majority of gender dysphoric minors grow up to be non-trans homosexuals but when given puberty blockers the vast majority grow up to be trans heterosexuals (well I suppose technically still homosexuals) so there does seem to be confounding issues there.

Cantor has written an analysis claiming that virtually all the research on the 'transgender brain' confounds gender identity with sexual orientation and the findings can be better explained by the latter.

 

[d4m10n]

Again keeping this discussion:

A) In the real world.

B) More focused on what actual literal actions instead of one step removed from pure semantics.

Would actually help get closer to an understanding instead of further away.

Easier said than done. Among those advocating major departures from the status quo in terms of "actual literal actions" there has been a certain reluctance to spell out what the new polices should actually look like.

 

[MisAndreG]

This discussion is not helped by shifting through Twitter and Tumbler looking for the silliest pro-trans arguments you can find.

Again keeping this discussion:

A) In the real world.

B) More focused on what actual literal actions instead of one step removed from pure semantics.

Would actually help get closer to an understanding instead of further away.

Point taken, but you’d be mistaken to believe these tweets are just me nutpicking the silliest Trans “arguments” — this kind of stuff is par for the course in TGNB spaces, whether we’re talking about, for example, the academic literature that deals with these issues, or casual online discussion spaces.

Also, these discourses move through society quickly, and have real consequences in the world like how gender is a social construct became gender identity became a basis for eroding sex-specific protections for women.

 

[Rolfe]

I had a few hours to spare at work, so I read that whole paper. I just wanted to say thanks for posting it - it was absolutely fascinating.

One of the things that has shocked me about all this is the open, declared, concerted attempts by trans activists to discredit, defund and deplatform anyone who disagrees with them. It takes "there is no debate" to its ultimate. It's often grossly disproportionate, with a couple of fairly mild comments from someone they get in their sights triggering the full repertoire of attack. Women have lost their jobs, lost book deals, lost speaking engagements. Complex "debunking" literature has been constructed to discredit any science or philosophy they don't like.

But what is perhaps even more shocking is how well all this has succeeded. Companies have actually sacked women based on trans activists' allegations. Publishers have actually cancelled book deals. Everyone (especially the ones who've had the benefit of the Stonewall/Mermaids brainwashing sessions) seems prepared to roll over and bleat "mea culpa" the minute the trans lobby contacts them and informs them that someone or some organisation they've been dealing with is "transphobic".

We see it on this thread, where any mention of Bailey or Blanchard triggers links to the usual hatchet-job web pages and pious declarations that their science has been "discredited" so may be dismissed.

We see it on twitter, where literally scores of gender-critical accounts have been suspended and banned following concerted reporting campaigns by trans activists who know how twitter's algorithms work (and have a hot-line to transwomen staff on twitter, there are a lot of transwomen in senior IT jobs). And the remarkable fact is that this is all done openly, with these accounts discussing their campaigns on public twitter, debating whom to target next, linking to tweets that are to be mass-reported, and high-fiving when the target account is banned. And yet these people are still given favourable treatment as "the most marginalised and oppressed people on the planet".

I could say a lot more about self-described transwomen and their quintessentually masculine behaviour, about how the actions of the male are continually approved of or at least excused while women are told to know their place and give way, but maybe later.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

One of the things that has shocked me about all this is the open, declared, concerted attempts by trans activists to discredit, defund and deplatform anyone who disagrees with them. It takes "there is no debate" to its ultimate. It's often grossly disproportionate, with a couple of fairly mild comments from someone they get in their sights triggering the full repertoire of attack. Women have lost their jobs, lost book deals, lost speaking engagements. Complex "debunking" literature has been constructed to discredit any science or philosophy they don't like.

But what is perhaps even more shocking is how well all this has succeeded.

While I don't agree with you on trans people in general, I definitely agree with this. There's no opposing view points among the more... ardent trans activists, it's just with us or against us. You agree with us, or you're a "transphobe" or "TERF". Various arguments they disagree with are given various labels, like "trans eraser", and discussion threads or videos about them require "content warnings".

"Homophobe" is a good term as it describes a person who's very afraid of, and/or hateful, towards homosexuals. The more strident trans activists seem to have taken the same term for trans people, "transphobia", and decided to weaponize it by using it on anyone who disagrees with them.

It's like how certain people in Norway took the term "bullying" -- a horrible thing to do to people, and one that often ruins lives -- and applied it to everything from honest, rational disagreement to single instances of teasing. While still pretending it retains its strong meaning, mind you.

I think the best example is JK Rowling. Forget all the wonderful books she has written, and all the good she has done for the world with her charity -- she's a TERF and a transphobe, so she shouldn't even be given the chance to appear on a stage.

 

[LondonJohn]

It's weird. A couple of months ago, I tweeted* about how homosexuals are just imagining their disorder, that their claims to be sexually attracted to those of the same sex/gender are just a delusion based upon a deep internalised desire to be loved themselves, and that they would do well to undergo therapy to make them normal again. And do you know what? Other people on Twitter had the temerity to attack me! Just for having an opposing viewpoint to theirs! Some of it was pretty vicious too. I couldn't believe it. And I couldn't believe that Twitter did nothing to take my side - I'm pretty sure it was because many of those attacking me have hotlines to homosexual staff on Twitter - there are a lot of homosexuals in senior IT jobs.




* I didn't

 

[Rolfe]

I think the best example is JK Rowling. Forget all the wonderful books she has written, and all the good she has done for the world with her charity -- she's a TERF and a transphobe, so she shouldn't even be given the chance to appear on a stage.

I decided not to mention Rowling specifically, but yes she's a good example. Look at what she has actually written. None of it should be contentious at all, but if you disagree with her then fine, you're free to explain why you disagree and try to persuade people to agree with you. But that doesn't happen. What does happen is gross misrepresentation of what she has written, attacks on these straw men, and stuff that doesn't even go that far, just labels her and her writing and damns her to the outer darkness on the basis of these labels alone.

Did you know that on her birthday earlier this year one fan paid for advertising space in Waverley station (the main railway station in Edinburgh, where she lives) for adverts that read simply "We [heart] JKR!" I don't know which is the more shocking, that there were complaints made to the company that sold the advertising space about these adverts, or that the company promptly rolled over, said it hadn't realised these posters were "political" but since it didn't allow political advertising then they would be immediately taken down.

 

[Arcade22]

I could say a lot more about self-described transwomen and their quintessentually masculine behaviour, about how the actions of the male are continually approved of or at least excused while women are told to know their place and give way, but maybe later.

I love this blend of victim playing and transphobia. Is it possible for you to mention transwomen and not heap scorn upon them?

 

[LondonJohn]

Yeah - the same happened in my case too! Someone paid to put up a big poster at London Euston Station that read simply "We [heart] LondonJohn". I was similarly shocked that the company which sold the advertising space subsequently decided (after complaints from disgusting "homo-activists") that the poster was "political" - they decided (can you believe it?) that the poster was intended as an endorsement of that tweet I'd written, and they got it taken down. This country........

 

[caveman1917]

Yeah - the same happened in my case too! Someone paid to put up a big poster at London Euston Station that read simply "We [heart] LondonJohn". I was similarly shocked that the company which sold the advertising space subsequently decided (after complaints from disgusting "homo-activists") that the poster was "political" - they decided (can you believe it?) that the poster was intended as an endorsement of that tweet I'd written, and they got it taken down. This country........

Must be quite narcissistic homo-activists to simply assume that a poster "We [heart] LondonJohn" for LondonJohn's birthday must be about that one tweet LondonJohn once wrote about homo-activists rather than about LondonJohn being a well-known author and it being his birthday.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's weird. A couple of months ago, I tweeted* about how homosexuals are just imagining their disorder, that their claims to be sexually attracted to those of the same sex/gender are just a delusion based upon a deep internalised desire to be loved themselves, and that they would do well to undergo therapy to make them normal again. And do you know what?

Homosexuals have an actual coherent description of what they are and want they want from society, instead of vague self defining references to an internal identity divorced from all real world defining criteria.

Gay is something you are with actual external defining factors. That's a huge difference.

There are parallels between homosexuality and transgender-ism as it applies to societal acceptance, but they are hardly 1:1.

 

[LondonJohn]

Must be quite narcissistic homo-activists to simply assume that a poster "We [heart] LondonJohn" for LondonJohn's birthday must be about that one tweet LondonJohn once wrote about homo-activists rather than about LondonJohn being a well-known author and it being his birthday.

I know - ridiculous isn't it! I mean, granted: nobody had ever done anything like that for any of the other two decades of birthdays I'd had since I became a world-famous author, and the poster was put up in the immediate aftermath of that tweet of mine which drew such a viciously angry (and totally unjustifiably so) response.... but nevertheless. I bet the person at the advertising company who took the decision to take it down was homosexual too. Or "homosexual", I should correctly say.

 

[Matthew Best]

One of the things that has shocked me about all this is the open, declared, concerted attempts by trans activists to discredit, defund and deplatform anyone who disagrees with them. It takes "there is no debate" to its ultimate. It's often grossly disproportionate, with a couple of fairly mild comments from someone they get in their sights triggering the full repertoire of attack. Women have lost their jobs, lost book deals, lost speaking engagements. Complex "debunking" literature has been constructed to discredit any science or philosophy they don't like.

The story in that paper was quite shocking, and it's remarkably well written, laying everything out very clearly and believably. I recommend it to everyone.

 

[LondonJohn]

Homosexuals have an actual coherent description of what they are and want they want from society, instead of vague self defining references to an internal identity divorced from all real world defining criteria.

Gay is something you are with actual external defining factors. That's a huge difference.

There are parallels between homosexuality and transgender-ism as it applies to societal acceptance, but they are hardly 1:1.

I'm not drawing a 1:1 comparison, and nor are those posts intended to suggest a 1:1 comparison. They're just intended as a comparison, to illuminate an underlying principle.

 

[LondonJohn]

The story in that paper was quite shocking, and it's remarkably well written, laying everything out very clearly and believably. I recommend it to everyone.

And of course that sort of concerted, highly-organised behaviour - with the intention (and often the result) of causing real harm or damage to those at whom their campaigns were aimed - is utterly reprehensible and disgraceful.

 

[Arcade22]

Have the persecuted "gender critical" posters given a thought about seeking asylum in Russia? Since so many of you are apparently suffering greatly under the tyranny of pro-trans lobby, you should consider escaping to more traditional shores where your transphobic opinions are officially mandated by the state and dissidents risk criminal penalties.

 

[Rolfe]

It's weird. A couple of months ago, I tweeted* about how homosexuals are just imagining their disorder, that their claims to be sexually attracted to those of the same sex/gender are just a delusion based upon a deep internalised desire to be loved themselves, and that they would do well to undergo therapy to make them normal again. And do you know what? Other people on Twitter had the temerity to attack me! Just for having an opposing viewpoint to theirs! Some of it was pretty vicious too. I couldn't believe it. And I couldn't believe that Twitter did nothing to take my side - I'm pretty sure it was because many of those attacking me have hotlines to homosexual staff on Twitter - there are a lot of homosexuals in senior IT jobs.

Yeah - the same happened in my case too! Someone paid to put up a big poster at London Euston Station that read simply "We [heart] LondonJohn". I was similarly shocked that the company which sold the advertising space subsequently decided (after complaints from disgusting "homo-activists") that the poster was "political" - they decided (can you believe it?) that the poster was intended as an endorsement of that tweet I'd written, and they got it taken down. This country........

Note the complete absence of any similarity between LondonJohn's invented tweet and any tweet Joanne Rowling has ever posted about trans people. It's a perfect example of the straw-man response I outlined earlier.

I'm not drawing a 1:1 comparison, and nor are those posts intended to suggest a 1:1 comparison. They're just intended as a comparison, to illuminate an underlying principle.

No, it's a complete straw man. Joanne Rowling has never at any time tweeted (or written elsewhere) about transwomen in anything even remotely resembling the terms you employ in your "illuminating comparison".

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm not drawing a 1:1 comparison, and nor are those posts intended to suggest a 1:1 comparison. They're just intended as a comparison, to illuminate an underlying principle.

My point was when in questions of acceptance in relation to homosexuals I'm given actual things to do, actual real world behaviors modify. There's an actual point to it.

With Transgenderism I feel like I've been presented a man who has sex with women, is only sexually attracted to women, is married to a woman yet wants me to mentally rewire my brain the consider him gay and calling me a homophobe if I don't.

"Literally think of me within this context" is a very different beast from acceptance of actions and behaviors.

And since we're dozens of pages deep in the third part of I've lost count of how many threads on the topic where I've spend the entire time screaming "WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE JUST ******* TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO DO DIFFERENTLY THAT ISN'T PURE SEMANTICS" and I still haven't got anything resembling an answer from anyone I'm being left with many options but to just accept that there isn't one.

 

[LondonJohn]

JK Rowling? LOL. Really?

https://news.sky.com/story/jk-rowling-criticised-for-condescending-and-transphobic-tweets-12022330

https://www.scotsman.com/arts-and-c...uthor-was-accused-transphobia-twitter-2877977

https://www.vogue.com/article/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-harry-potter-franchise

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/12/19/21029852/jk-rowling-terf-transphobia-history-timeline

https://indianexpress.com/article/books-and-literature/jk-rowling-stephen-king-twitter-6481821/

 

[Arcade22]

With Transgenderism I feel like I've been presented a man who has sex with women, is only sexually attracted to women, is married to a woman yet wants me to mentally rewire my brain the consider him gay and calling me a homophobe if I don't.

So what you are saying is that somehow the fact that transwomen actually strive to act and look like other women flew over your head?