Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[d4m10n]

2379 then (as one example out of quite a few)

LOL, wut? You seriously expect us to derive a defintion of "man" from this:

Sex is to do with prevailing biology. Gender is to do with identity.

So, for example, even trans women who have undergone every possible surgical and hormonal/chemical procedure to remove the visible signs of "maleness" are still male by sex. But they're women by gender.

Dude, get serious. Tell us straightforwardly and without equivocation what trans men and cis men have in common which makes us all men.

 

[theprestige]

I don't have an explanation, that's my point. Everyone always wants me to define what I think feeling and being like a woman is and I don't know how to explain it, any more than I could if you asked me to explain how it is to feel like and be a man. Even after 30 years of living as one, I don't know.

I know that isn't good enough for you and others, but I'm still figuring myself out.

I mean, it's more than good enough for me if that's your personal truth about yourself. What's not so good is you telling me that you're entitled to have me and everybody else go along with your personal truth about yourself, as a societal norm and a matter of public policy.

 

[theprestige]

And I am ignoring them, because i'm finally happy with myself and don't need their negativity. : )

... you just need their gender-segregated spaces.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes you’re absolutely correct. The heart is witnessed in the act as they say. If all of this was just relegated to words and delusions I wouldn’t care, but it’s not. It’s now becoming a law in many places that in effect tw are women, and the brunt of the consequences will be borne by women, as usual. I’m also worried about what Paul McHugh calls the pathogenic meme aspect of t identity on young ppl and young girls in particular who seem very susceptible to this, who are mutilating their bodies and doing Darwin knows what to their brains with exogenous hormones. All of his horror is being cheered on and it scares me.

You're right to be scared. It won't last of course. We've seen delusional medical fads before and people look back on them with embarrassment and denial. This one is pretty extreme but it won't last in the long term and probably not even in the medium term.

What does upset me is the damaged children and young people it's going to leave behind. Nothing can be done for the Jazz Jenningss or Jackie Greens of this world now. Their chance of a normal life is gone and their lives have been ruined. There are hundreds, probably thousands of young women trying to pick up their lives as young women, but with no breasts, deep voices, receding hairlines and the need to shave daily. Some have had also had hysterectomies and even more radical surgery.

It's normal for adolescent girls to hate their bodies, and to hate the attention they're attracting from men as they develop. It takes sensitivity to help them through this stage. Some retreat into anorexia to try to retain or regain their androgynous pre-puberty appearance, and now another possibility has been opened to them.

There are going to be some very acrimonious lawsuits coming out of this, and I think some of them have started already.

 

[Rolfe]

... you just need their gender-segregated spaces.

It's actually our sex-segregated spaces and provisions that Boudicca wants to invade and occupy as of right.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm aware of the Stonewall and Mermaids brainwashing courses and I understand how people who have been on these courses, particularly people who aren't very deep thinkers or insightful and who have been used to taking on what authority figures say at face value, come to swallow this garbage. The result is every police officer wearing a rainbow lanyard and parroting TWAW and "trans ally" while insisting they're not taking a political position.

What I don't understand is how apparently reasonable people who have shown some signs of being able to engage in independent thought, and who have not been on one of these training courses, come to espouse this garbage. It's entirely at variance with societal norms and observable reality. Unless they're extremely young they didn't grow up believing that human beings can change sex and that woman is a feeling in a man's head. So how come they believe this now?

 

[Elaedith]

You're right to be scared. It won't last of course. We've seen delusional medical fads before and people look back on them with embarrassment and denial. This one is pretty extreme but it won't last in the long term and probably not even in the medium term.

What does upset me is the damaged children and young people it's going to leave behind. Nothing can be done for the Jazz Jenningss or Jackie Greens of this world now. Their chance of a normal life is gone and their lives have been ruined. There are hundreds, probably thousands of young women trying to pick up their lives as young women, but with no breasts, deep voices, receding hairlines and the need to shave daily. Some have had also had hysterectomies and even more radical surgery.

It's normal for adolescent girls to hate their bodies, and to hate the attention they're attracting from men as they develop. It takes sensitivity to help them through this stage. Some retreat into anorexia to try to retain or regain their androgynous pre-puberty appearance, and now another possibility has been opened to them.

There are going to be some very acrimonious lawsuits coming out of this, and I think some of them have started already.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/challenge-innate-gender/

 

[Boudicca90]

... you just need their gender-segregated spaces.

The TERF viewpoints that Rolfe, MisAndreG, and others in this thread put forward do not represent all women, or even a majority of women, as they are outnumbered by women who are fine with us and don't see us as threats. Their kind of extremism is thankfully rare, but their views are the kind that have kept me in the closet for so long. They mean nothing to me.

 

[JoeMorgue]

*Raises hand*

Question.

I (biological cis-male who identifies as a male) am in a public bathroom or similar segregated type space.

A biological woman who identifies as a male comes into this space. I have no issue with this, make no notice of it, and make zero effort to challenge the person or make them uncomfortable.

A biological woman who doesn't identify as a male comes into this space. I have the same lack of issue, make the same no notice of it, and make the same zero effort to challenge the person or make them uncomfortable.

However the person who identifies as a man takes issue with the person who identifies as a woman being the space and asks this person to leave. (We will assume no aggression, harassment, or intent to do harm on the part of everyone) I do not take her side.

Am I the bad guy?

 

[TomB]

What does upset me is the damaged children and young people it's going to leave behind. Nothing can be done for the Jazz Jenningss or Jackie Greens of this world now. Their chance of a normal life is gone and their lives have been ruined. There are hundreds, probably thousands of young women trying to pick up their lives as young women, but with no breasts, deep voices, receding hairlines and the need to shave daily. Some have had also had hysterectomies and even more radical surgery.

Regardless of opinions on early transitions, it's a bit much to declare their lives "ruined." It's possible that they may regret it at some point. Or not. It's certainly not a given.

And even if they do regret it, writing their lives off as ruined basically equates the value of their lives to their sex organs.

It's normal for adolescent girls to hate their bodies, and to hate the attention they're attracting from men as they develop. It takes sensitivity to help them through this stage. Some retreat into anorexia to try to retain or regain their androgynous pre-puberty appearance, and now another possibility has been opened to them.

Funny. I thought it was unattainable feminine body standards that drove girls to anorexia. Now it's a desire to avoid a feminine body image?

Girls uncomfortable with their bodies are more likely to go the Billie Eilish route, I think: baggy clothes that disguise their curves.

 

[Boudicca90]

*Raises hand*

Question.

I (biological cis-male who identifies as a male) am in a public bathroom or similar segregated type space.

A biological woman who identifies as a male comes into this space. I have no issue with this, make no notice of it, and make zero effort to challenge the person or make them uncomfortable.

A biological woman who doesn't identify as a male comes into this space. I have the same lack of issue, make the same no notice of it, and make the same zero effort to challenge the person or make them uncomfortable.

However the person who identifies as a man takes issue with the person who identifies as a woman being the space and asks this person to leave. (We will assume no aggression, harassment, or intent to do harm on the part of everyone) I do not take her side.

Am I the bad guy?

No, I don't think so.

The other guy would be within his rights to do so and you have no obligation to back him up, imo.

 

[d4m10n]

The other guy would be within his rights to do so...

Why?

 

[TomB]

No, I don't think so.

The other guy would be within his rights to do so and you have no obligation to back him up, imo.

So does the trans man also have the right to object to a trans woman using the men's room?

The men's bathroom is reserved for those who identify as men, right?

And the women's bathroom is reserved for those who identify as women?

What about the gender fluid? Should a gender fluid person use whichever they feel the most affinity to at the moment?

 

[theprestige]

The TERF viewpoints that Rolfe, MisAndreG, and others in this thread put forward do not represent all women, or even a majority of women, as they are outnumbered by women who are fine with us and don't see us as threats. Their kind of extremism is thankfully rare, but their views are the kind that have kept me in the closet for so long. They mean nothing to me.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

ETA: Also, " do not represent all women, or even a majority of women, as they are outnumbered by women who are fine with us and don't see us as threats" -- Maybe in some parts of California? And appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy. Popular support is not the same as moral truth or physical reality.

 

[Boudicca90]

So does the trans man also have the right to object to a trans woman using the men's room?

Yes.

The men's bathroom is reserved for those who identify as men, right?

Yes.

And the women's bathroom is reserved for those who identify as women?

Yes.

What about the gender fluid? Should a gender fluid person use whichever they feel the most affinity to at the moment?

Yes.

You pretty much summed up the laws as they are here, and I think it works well.

For example, if I entered the men's room, a man (either trans or cis) would be perfectly in their rights to tell me to get out because I don't belong in there.

 

[Boudicca90]

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

ETA: Also, " do not represent all women, or even a majority of women, as they are outnumbered by women who are fine with us and don't see us as threats" -- Maybe in some parts of California? And appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy. Popular support is not the same as moral truth or physical reality.

Because there are a lot of people in this thread with erroneous and discriminatory views toward transgender women, and as a transgender woman, I think I have the right to give my own perspective on things that affect me.

You want to turn this place into an echo chamber to agree with each other's transphobic viewpoints without any counter view. Make up lies and theories about why you consider us so damaged and delusional.

I'm done not standing up for myself, so I participate in this thread, despite the disgusting things people have been saying.

 

[d4m10n]

For example, if I entered the men's room, a man (either trans or cis) would be perfectly in their rights to tell me to get out because I don't belong in there.

If you mean legal rights, which set of laws are we talking about?

 

[caveman1917]

For example, if I entered the men's room, a man (either trans or cis) would be perfectly in their rights to tell me to get out because I don't belong in there.

You could just identify as a man for the time between entering the bathroom and exiting it. Problem solved.

 

[Robin]

But for those who - I dunno - might have a tin-foil-helmet fear of opening up a government-entity website in case (I dunno) they have a fear of The Man taking control of their laptops....

....here's some of what the ONS paper (whose title is "What is the difference between sex and gender?"), last updated in Feb 2019 and still a live document - has to say about gender vs sex in a gender identity context:

The UK government defines sex as:

- referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions

- generally male or female

- something that is assigned at birth


The UK government defines gender as:

- a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth

- where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman


As I said, maybe the UK Government doesn't know what it's talking about with respect to gender identity, either........

It seems highly likely to me that the UK Government don't know what they are talking about on a number of issues.

But the problem here is that their definition of gender is basically that it doesn't really say anything.

If I were to define the categories "A type people" and "B type people" and then say that A type people have the behaviours and attributes associated with A type people and B type people have the behaviours and attributes associated with B type people then you wouldn't know whether you were an A type person or a B type person.

But you also wouldn't know that you were neither A type nor B type or if you were somewhere in between because you would first have to know what those categories were.

My test for a definition of "gender" would be, "could I use this definition and be able to tell from it if I was a man or a woman or be able to tell if I was somewhere between being a man or a woman, or if I was neither a man nor a woman?"

Since I can't tell any of that from the definitions, then it is of no use.

 

[MisAndreG]

Preference falsification is a concept that a lot of TRAs need to get familiar with.