Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Elaedith]

Uh-huh. Body dysphoria is indeed a REAL disorder (or, more accurately, it's the product of a real disorder). I don't know quite whether you think anyone actually disputes this.

But it has now been determined by several globally-important organisations, and by many major governments - based upon scientific data and expert opinion - that gender dysphoria is a genuine medical condition in itself. Not a disorder, nor the product of a disorder.

Gender dysphoria is listed as a diagnosis in the DSM5 which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Therefore it is classified as a mental disorder as are all diagnoses in DSM regardless of whether the word 'disorder' appears in the name. It was redefined from gender identity disorder to gender dysphoria when DSM5 came out in 2013, in order to remove stigma attached to the term and to describe the condition more accurately. Some trans activists did not want any diagnosis related to transgender identity retained, but the consensus was to rename rather than remove it. If it was regarded as a 'medical condition' rather than a mental disorder (where does this claim come from?) it would have been removed.

WHO followed the change in DSM terminology which is usual practice. They agreed to place it under sexual health rather than mental disorders, which is unusual for DSM diagnoses and reflects trans activist lobbying.

It is probably not appropriate to describe gender dysphoria as a mental illness or the product of a mental illness. Many other diagnosis in DSM are not appropriately described as mental illness either (e.g. autism). Evidence of a neurological basis for a disorder does not automatically affect it's inclusion in DSM.

(And, incidentally, mainstream medical thinking to this effect is precisely why gender reassignment surgeons are not required to consider the "do no harm" maxim - in the way that, for example, surgeons would be required to do if someone with body dysphoria wanted their leg to be amputated. The (e.g.) removal of the male genitals of a trans woman who has been properly assessed and diagnosed (provided, of course, that this is what the trans woman wants) is the treatment of a valid medical condition, as opposed to being the treatment of an illusory belief that is itself the product of a mental disorder)

But both gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are DSM diagnoses as above. Allowing sex reassignment surgery but not the amputation of a leg in this scenario could be seen as inconsistent, since the purpose of both is to alleviate distress. However, I suspect that the sex reassignment is viewed differently because it does not involve making somebody disabled in the sense that a missing limb is a disability but having a particular sexual anatomy is not.

Even if you were correct in the significance you seem to be attaching to changing the name of a DSM diagnoses, it cannot be related to allowing sex reassignment surgery because the surgery has been allowed long before this change was made, when the term gender identity disorder was still used.

 

[Earthborn]

So... transwomen have been discriminated against because of their sex?

Yes.

Legislation gets passed that revokes your bodily autonomy and makes your reproduction subject to approval from members of the opposite sex?

Sort of. A lot of countries have legislation that revokes transpeople's bodily autonomy.

How much sexism have you had to deal with? How often have you been shut down and had your voice dismissed because of your sex? How often has it been implied that you're just innately not suited to executive functions? When was the last time your complaint was ignored because "it must be your time of the month"? How much of your life did you hear that "women always overreact, they're just so emotional" and had that used as a reason to dismiss your experience as being unimportant? How many of your concerns have been dismissed out of hand as "not that big a deal"?

Since Boudicca has stated she is passable, I think the answer is: quite a lot.

Has there been a long-running stereotype that transwomen, being natal males, are naturally ill-suited for math and don't have the minds for it?

There has been a long-running stereotype that transwomen, having "feminine minds", are naturally ill-suited for maths and don't have the minds for it.

Which religions teach that you are literally a subset of a whole human, created from a male, in order to be subordinate to males?

All the major ones.

 

[LondonJohn]

We want to find the "absolute best" biological woman as well (among other things). But please, let's completely disregard the hard work of women's athletes. They might as well not have bothered.

Honestly, why shouldn't transwomen compete with men?

Oooh way to go with the strawman!!

I think that mainstream thinking (and my own thinking) is that transgender people - and specifically trans women, for reasons which are probably obvious - should not be allowed to compete in the women's categories of elite sport (or, for that matter, any competitive sport with a regional or national profile) in which physiological factors play a role.

(But of course, that is also a world away from - say - trans women turning out for an inter-office 5-a-side women's football match...)

 

[lionking]

I think you are overreacting not because you are a woman, but because nobody has been able to show that any of these problems exist, except in your own mind. You seem to have a persecution complex and have convinced yourself that we are going to eventually take everything away from cisgender women that you think belong to you and you alone.

And I do mean you, because you don't speak for all cisgender women out there. We have a lot of cisgender allies, that you constantly dismiss and insult as just being manipulated by the "trans lobby" or "TRAs", who are perfectly fine with us and don't see us as a threat to their safety or rights.

You are not one of them, so stop pretending you are.

Let’s concentrate on sport for a moment, something you seem to largely ignore. Some people insist on competing in women’s sport, professional or otherwise, because they identify as women. Do you not see a problem there?

 

[Olmstead]

I don't think we'll ever see a gender-blind world.

On the whole, the biological differences between the sexes are too apparent, and too significant, to avoid societies building up constructs around them.

On top of that, people like Boudicca need those social constructs in order for their own gender identity preferences to make sense.

Well, I kind of picture a world where advanced body-modification is completely safe, convenient, and readily available and gender becomes little more than aesthetic. Not in my lifetime obviously.

 

[LondonJohn]

Gender dysphoria is listed as a diagnosis in the DSM5 which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Therefore it is classified as a mental disorder as are all diagnoses in DSM regardless of whether the word 'disorder' appears in the name.

If you actually read DSM-5 (and/or any relevant commentary on it), you'd see that it very specifically declassified gender dysphoria as something which belonged in the category of sex-related disorders. DSM-5 now does not regard gender dysphoria as a disorder as such.


(I realise you thought you'd found a "gotcha" insomuch as DSM is concerned purely with the diagnosis of things it considers disorders. Sorry to disabuse you.)

 

[LondonJohn]

Well, I kind of picture a world where advanced body-modification is completely safe, convenient, and readily available and gender becomes little more than aesthetic. Not in my lifetime obviously.

Another strawman! You're hitting them out of the park tonight!!

 

[Olmstead]

Oooh way to go with the strawman!!

I think that mainstream thinking (and my own thinking) is that transgender people - and specifically trans women, for reasons which are probably obvious - should not be allowed to compete in the women's categories of elite sport (or, for that matter, any competitive sport with a regional or national profile) in which physiological factors play a role.

(But of course, that is also a world away from - say - trans women turning out for an inter-office 5-a-side women's football match...)

What strawman? I was literally responding to someone who doesn't think women's sports matter enough to be considered.

 

[Olmstead]

Another strawman! You're hitting them out of the park tonight!!

How is a slice of my personal imaginary utopia a strawman?

 

[LondonJohn]

What strawman? I was literally responding to someone who doesn't think women's sports matter enough to be considered.

That's not what the other person was saying AT ALL.

Hence the strawman.

 

[Elaedith]

If you actually read DSM-5 (and/or any relevant commentary on it), you'd see that it very specifically declassified gender dysphoria as something which belonged in the category of sex-related disorders. DSM-5 now does not regard gender dysphoria as a disorder as such.


(I realise you thought you'd found a "gotcha" insomuch as DSM is concerned purely with the diagnosis of things it considers disorders. Sorry to disabuse you.)

I have read the DSM5 thank you. Yes, gender dysphoria was moved into it's own chapter during the revision. Many other disorders also changed chapter (e.g. OCD and PTSD were classified as anxiety disorders prior to 2013, but in DSM5 were moved to their own chapter). This does not mean they are no longer disorders. If something is considered no longer appropriately classified under the broad category of mental disorders then it gets removed from the DSM. (e.g. Rett syndrome used to be in DSM but is now classified as a genetic disorder hence removed altogether).

 

[Olmstead]

That's not what the other person was saying AT ALL.

Hence the strawman.

"Handicapped sport"? "Body shape" and "testosterone classes"? Arbitrary reasons to let transwomen compete? Yeah, that totally exudes respect for women's sports.

 

[LondonJohn]

I have read the DSM5 thank you. Yes, gender dysphoria was moved into it's own chapter during the revision. Many other disorders also changed chapter (e.g. OCD and PTSD were classified as anxiety disorders prior to 2013, but in DSM5 were moved to their own chapter). This does not mean they are no longer disorders. If something is considered no longer appropriately classified under the broad category of mental disorders then it gets removed from the DSM. (e.g. Rett syndrome used to be in DSM but is now classified as a genetic disorder hence removed altogether).

Nooooo.

Gender dysphoria is in DSM because it is - for the time being at least - a condition which is only capable of being diagnosed by mental health professionals.

By contrast, the example you gave (Rett syndrome) got removed from DSM purely because it is now something which is not diagnosed by a mental health professional, but rather via gene analysis.

 

[LondonJohn]

"Handicapped sport"? "Body shape" and "testosterone classes"? Arbitrary reasons to let transwomen compete? Yeah, that totally exudes respect for women's sports.

1) No, that doesn't follow.

2) Regardless, it still doesn't constitute an argument along the lines that your strawman response attacked.

 

[LondonJohn]

How is a slice of my personal imaginary utopia a strawman?

Because your sarcastic statement was quite obviously an attempt at a satirical instrument to attack what you saw as the trans-rights POV, when in fact it's nowhere near the trans-rights POV.

 

[Elaedith]

Nooooo.

Gender dysphoria is in DSM because it is - for the time being at least - a condition which is only capable of being diagnosed by mental health professionals.

By contrast, the example you gave (Rett syndrome) got removed from DSM purely because it is now something which is not diagnosed by a mental health professional, but rather via gene analysis.

When it became apparent that it could only be diagnosed via gene analysis because it is in fact a genetic disorder then it was no longer appropriate for it to be in DSM, yes. Actually it used to be classified as a form of autism.

A condition which can only be diagnosed by mental health professionals rather than medical doctors is appropriately included in the broad category of mental disorders which is why it is still included in DSM.

ETA: I should add that dysphoria involves psychological distress (feelings of discomfort, unease and sometimes disgust with bodily features). The criteria are very similar to other psychological disorders involving distress. Transgender identity itself is not a disorder.

 

[Olmstead]

1) No, that doesn't follow.

2) Regardless, it still doesn't constitute an argument along the lines that your strawman response attacked.

I don't even know what you're upset about. Currently women's sports is seeing a growth in popularity and recognition. All those proposals would be bad for women's sports and turn it back into a sideshow to the men's category. Categories in sports are somewhat arbitrary, but the separation based on sex helps give legitemacy to the best women, and if you tear down the category you're actively hurting women's athletes.

 

[Olmstead]

Because your sarcastic statement was quite obviously an attempt at a satirical instrument to attack what you saw as the trans-rights POV, when in fact it's nowhere near the trans-rights POV.

Okay, I'm sorry if that came across as sarcastic. I was actually just doing small talk and that is actually how I picture the future. I'm not even saying it's realistic.

 

[Marcus]

LOL. We were not.

Perhaps you've never been to locker rooms wherein (typically older) folks feel free to stroll about completely in the buff. If so, good for you, but try not to generalize from your experience to all the other locker rooms.

It's been a while since I've been in a locker room, it's my understanding that young people these days are so shy they feel the need to cover up with towels. It seems very strange, and I'm in Texas, not Sweden.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If you actually read DSM-5 (and/or any relevant commentary on it), you'd see that it very specifically declassified gender dysphoria as something which belonged in the category of sex-related disorders. DSM-5 now does not regard gender dysphoria as a disorder as such.


(I realise you thought you'd found a "gotcha" insomuch as DSM is concerned purely with the diagnosis of things it considers disorders. Sorry to disabuse you.)

Your edit of Elaedith's post seem dinsgenuous, in that you can only strawman it as a "gotcha" by ignoring the part that you excluded.