Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Emily's Cat]

The difference is that there is now a good body of medical evidence which supports the validity of mis-gendering and the wish to gender-transition. By contrast, there's no evidence (that I know of) which supports the validity of "mis-ethnicity-ing".

Umm... not convinced here, John. There's plenty that supports the wish to gender transition, yes. But I am skeptical of the medical evidence supporting 'misgendering' (assuming you mean transgender here). I've seen none that is useful or meaningful, only some that is cherry-picking and selectively reporting.

 

[Boudicca90]

This is a very personal question, and if you prefer not to answer, that's perfectly alright.

Why would you be ashamed of having a penis? Why would that be a source of shame?

And why do you think your life would be easier if you had a vagina?

From my perspective, life would be easier if I had a penis for two reasons: I could pee standing up on the side of the road, and no more periods. Both of those are matters of convenience and comfort, and neither of them have anything to do with my identity or how other people perceive me.

On the other hand, body shame is something I do not understand at all. My body is what it is. I'm a bit embarrassed at how chubby I've become in my late 40s... but I'm not ashamed of it. I'm self-conscious of the many chin-hairs that have sprung up as I approach menopause, but I'm not ashamed of them. Shame, to me, is something you feel when you have done something wrong. My body is my body, and it's largely outside of my control. I didn't do anything wrong, hell nature didn't do anything wrong. It just is.

You really don't understand anything about gender dysphoria, yet you just immediately dismiss it anyway. Very well, i'll indulge you.

Because I have never viewed myself as male, I never liked the fact that I was born with a penis and testicles. I have become more tolerable of it than other trans women, and therefore can somewhat live with it, but I still had moments when I wanted to cut it off and just be done with it (and then I thought about the inevitable pain and stopped myself.)

And had two separate points in my life where my disgust over my body not aligning with my gender became so great that I took a bottle of pills and tried to off myself like so many trans teens try to do due to transphobic attitudes they encounter. Luckily I didn't succeed, like so many of us ultimately do. But i'm still part of the 40% of transpeople who have attempted it.

My life would be easier with a vagina at this point because my penis has become even more of a hindrance now as a woman. I don't have the function or interest in using it anyway, and it is a deal-breaker for a lot of guys now that I feel comfortable enough to actually start dating. But i'm also poor and have extreme anxiety about any kind of surgery.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think you'll find any social activists on board with this approach, whether 2nd wave feminists or pro-trans intersectionalists. The former want to exclude males from female spaces, the latter want total acceptance without such burdens.

I'm guessing I'm not being counted as an activist?

 

[The Atheist]

So I'm going to have to call foul on your claim that dudes don't care.

Pretty sure Cully was talking about guys not caring who's in their rest rooms, which is true.

As has been noted, trans women in male rest rooms are probably at the greatest danger of anyone in this entire mix.

Another reason for not wanting non-gendered rest rooms.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by activist circles right now. I've been described now as both an activist and a moderate, so I'm not sure how you see me here. But I don't know anybody that has the view that it's perfectly okay to whip out their penis in women's facilities.

I do think I came around someone like that in one of my trans groups once, but we kicked her out for not respecting the rest of us. And then I found out she was kicked out of another trans group I used to be a part of for the same reason. So I do know people like that exist, but they have no real voice among us.

I'd point you to Suburban Turkey and Squeegee Beckenham with respect to the view in question. I think I've already said this, but if not... I really think that a lot of the problems aren't coming from transgender people, but from overzealous "allies", many of whom happen (by some strange coinkidink) to be cismen...

Basically, there are a bunch of blokes* out there who, imo, are actively harming the objectives of both transgender people and women.




*Because cullennz's lingo is rubbing off on me now, and 'blokes' makes me smile.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well firstly, I most definitely would not be an advocate of any man simply declaring that he self-identifies as a woman, and on this basis alone should justifiably gain access to a women's changing facilities.

Aye, there's the rub.

There's a not-insignificant core of TRAs who want exactly that, and more. They want self-declaration alone to be the sole arbiter that grants male-born people access to ALL female services and spaces, including changing and locker rooms at all ages, domestic violence and rape shelters, prison wards, sports, scholarships, etc.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you not agree with that? Well, that makes the point disputed. I believe trans-women are women and trans-men are men. A good chunk of the medical community agrees with me.

In this context, what do the terms "women" and "men" mean?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Except we're not talking about dudes, we're talking about trans-women.

How do you distinguish between them?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ironically, these very same people who want to assume trans-men are rapists or maybe just pretending to be trans so that they can rape will squawk about the inherent sexism of men not being trusted around children because anyone taking care of a child who is not a woman must be a pedophile.

No, I don't think you're correct in that assumption. I for one think that the gender roles that prevent men from being considered caregivers for children are oppressive to men.

 

[Boudicca90]

I'd point you to Suburban Turkey and Squeegee Beckenham with respect to the view in question. I think I've already said this, but if not... I really think that a lot of the problems aren't coming from transgender people, but from overzealous "allies", many of whom happen (by some strange coinkidink) to be cismen...

Basically, there are a bunch of blokes* out there who, imo, are actively harming the objectives of both transgender people and women.




*Because cullennz's lingo is rubbing off on me now, and 'blokes' makes me smile.

I don't remember everything they have said in this entire thread, especially since It's been going on for a while, but they haven't said anything I disagree with as far as I know. And I appreciate those allies, even though you dismiss them because of their gender.

And cullennz's has been using "blokes" to refer to us as well, so i'm glad you found a new way to misgender us if you want to.

 

[Sherkeu]

You really don't understand anything about gender dysphoria, yet you just immediately dismiss it anyway. Very well, i'll indulge you.

Because I have never viewed myself as male, I never liked the fact that I was born with a penis and testicles. I have become more tolerable of it than other trans women, and therefore can somewhat live with it, but I still had moments when I wanted to cut it off and just be done with it (and then I thought about the inevitable pain and stopped myself.)

And had two separate points in my life where my disgust over my body not aligning with my gender became so great that I took a bottle of pills and tried to off myself like so many trans teens try to do due to transphobic attitudes they encounter. Luckily I didn't succeed, like so many of us ultimately do. But i'm still part of the 40% of transpeople who have attempted it.

My life would be easier with a vagina at this point because my penis has become even more of a hindrance now as a woman. I don't have the function or interest in using it anyway, and it is a deal-breaker for a lot of guys now that I feel comfortable enough to actually start dating. But i'm also poor and have extreme anxiety about any kind of surgery.

There are trans-able persons also. Not gender, but 'body' dysphoria.
It is a documented and REAL disorder where they feel that part of their body needs to be removed. They seem very specific about EXACTLY where the offensive part begins and their 'real' body begins. They often just fake that this part is 'not working' so others see them as they see themselves. This is their temporary fix.

Do you relate to these persons?

Doctors don't seem to want to give them surgeries for it (ie 'do no harm'), even though they often will get to a point of such desperation to harm themselves (or rather that part of themselves) and even though studies show that they DO get better psychologically when the offending part is removed.

 

[Boudicca90]

There are trans-able persons also. Not gender, but 'body' dysphoria.
It is a documented and REAL disorder where they feel that part of their body needs to be removed. They seem very specific about EXACTLY where the offensive part begins and their 'real' body begins. They often just fake that this part is 'not working' so others see them as they see themselves. This is their temporary fix.

Do you relate to these persons?

Doctors don't seem to want to give them surgeries for it (ie 'do no harm'), even though they often will get to a point of such desperation to harm themselves (or rather that part of themselves) and even though studies show that they DO get better psychologically when the offending part is removed.

No, not really, since genitals are only part of the problem, not the whole problem in itself.

If I cut my penis and testicles off, but still remained how I was physically in every other way, with all the other primary and secondary sex characteristics of being "male", I would still be unhappy. Genitals are only a small part of gender and usually takes more than just surgery (or no surgery at all) to treat gender dysphoria. So I don't see the situations as analogous.

One thing I have learned though the transgender community is that we are all on our own paths. As much as someone might like a "one size fits all" approach, it doesn't exist.

 

[Emily's Cat]

How about:

c)The same person with female anatomy and male appearance, who in his head identifies as a man, walks into a women's changing room.

Of course not. It is quite easy to understand.

It is a valid concern in scenarios a, b and c. The issues are exactly the same:

1. The facility offers insufficient privacy.
2. The person involved is probably quite aware of their appearance, and the fact that their appearance makes them not fit in. It is unlikely they would enter on purpose.
3. If this person does enter on purpose, these teenage girls may experience that as disruptive and are perfecty within their right to ask this person go to the men's changing room instead, because that is a better fit for this person's appearance.

That's a very good theory, but it hasn't gone that way when challenged. The high school and children's swim teams that use Evergreen Community College's pool and changing rooms are now taking turns using a much smaller separate facility in which to change because the college and the law sided with the 'rights' of the transwoman whose visible penis and scrotum caused the girls to complain in the first place.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Oh boy.

It would of course be remiss and unfair of me to reproduce that final paragraph of yours, but to substitute "white people" for "women and/or girls", "black people" for "someone with a penis", and "race" for "sex", and transfer the setting to (say) Alabama in the 1950s. But nevertheless.....

I keep seeing this brought up. I keep seeing the conflation of sex and race.

As a bit of a thought experiment... if people of two different races procreate, does their offspring become one race or the other, or do they end up as a blend of those races? How maleable is the concept of race, in its entirety?

Now, if two people of different sexes procreate, does their offspring become one sex or the other, or do they end up as a blend of the two sexes? How maleable is the concept of sex, in its entirety?

Along the same lines of this conflation... Do you support dismantling Affirmative Action? Getting rid of scholarships for black students? Eliminating services and spaces set aside for black people, to help them gain equality in an unequal society?

 

[Sherkeu]

No, not really, since genitals are only part of the problem, not the whole problem in itself.

If I cut my penis and testicles off, but still remained how I was physically in every other way, with all the other primary and secondary sex characteristics of being "male", I would still be unhappy. Genitals are only a small part of gender and usually takes more than just surgery (or no surgery at all) to treat gender dysphoria. So I don't see the situations as analogous.

I would encourage you to read a bit more about them. They 'want' to be seen as 'disabled'. It is not just about the one body part for them either. That is just the visible/physical manifestation that prevents them from living that way.
Some need surgery, some just need to 'appear' that way.

Just take a look at some of the science, documentaries, and blogs on it.
Like your 'community' - very broadly, some are fetishist about the disabled or get it from childhood experiences. Most in the 'majority' of humans would not ever comprehend such a thing is real but it DOES happen!

Another weird thing about what you said is that you want to be rid of all the 'other' sex characteristics'.

Just the genitals is not enough, right?

However, advocates that sex identity is fluid have made equivocations of the sexes by saying:
-some women have facial hair, including mustaches and beards (I have friends with this issue!)
-some women have an Adam's apple (Ann Coulter anyone?)
-some women are very tall
-some women are broad and large
-some women have narrow hips
-Many many women are stronger than many men
-Some women have a broad brow ridge
- etc.... I could go on for ages here.........

Some women have ALL these things!

So what is it that YOU have that NO woman on earth has that you need to be rid of it to be 'woman'? Can you not just get people to accept you as a women like all the manly women do?

The 'manly' looking women of the world may look at you with some side-eye here- especially if you want some special treatment for your 'condition'. They certainly suffer too.

 

[Boudicca90]

I would encourage you to read a bit more about them. They 'want' to be seen as 'disabled'. It is not just about the one body part for them either. That is just the visible/physical manifestation that prevents them from living that way.
Some need surgery, some just need to 'appear' that way.

Just take a look at some of the science, documentaries, and blogs on it.
Like your 'community' - very broadly, some are fetishist about the disabled or get it from childhood experiences. Most in the 'majority' of humans would not ever comprehend such a thing is real but it DOES happen!

Another weird thing about what you said is that you want to be rid of all the 'other' sex characteristics'.

Just the genitals is not enough, right?

However, advocates that sex identity is fluid have made equivocations of the sexes by saying:
-some women have facial hair, including mustaches and beards (I have friends with this issue!)
-some women have an Adam's apple (Ann Coulter anyone?)
-some women are very tall
-some women are broad and large
-some women have narrow hips
-Many many women are stronger than many men
-Some women have a broad brow ridge
- etc.... I could go on for ages here.........

Some women have ALL these things!

So what is it that YOU have that NO woman on earth has that you need to be rid of it to be 'woman'? Can you not just get people to accept you as a women like all the manly women do?

The 'manly' looking women of the world may look at you with some side-eye here- especially if you want some special treatment for your 'condition'. They certainly suffer too.

That's why I said we are all on our own paths.

Some transgender people are fine just dressing as the gender they really are without any other changes, some want the whole package with hormones and surgery, some are fine with some balance between the two. Some don't feel they fit in to either ends of the gender spectrum and choose a balance there that fits them.

All are valid.

 

[LondonJohn]

I keep seeing this brought up. I keep seeing the conflation of sex and race.

As a bit of a thought experiment... if people of two different races procreate, does their offspring become one race or the other, or do they end up as a blend of those races? How maleable is the concept of race, in its entirety?

Now, if two people of different sexes procreate, does their offspring become one sex or the other, or do they end up as a blend of the two sexes? How maleable is the concept of sex, in its entirety?

Along the same lines of this conflation... Do you support dismantling Affirmative Action? Getting rid of scholarships for black students? Eliminating services and spaces set aside for black people, to help them gain equality in an unequal society?

I suspect you might already know that I wasn't making an absolutist comparison - but rather that I was setting up a thought message that was purely concerning social attitudes. Some of my ensuing posts to that one tried more explicitly to explain this to those within this thread who - through no fault of their own, quite obviously - had misunderstood/misrepresented the actual meaning of what I'd written...


ETA: for reference, here is the sentence that I was addressing:

"If women and/or girls don't want someone with a penis in their female changing room, towel or not, there is no respectful way of for that person to be in their sex-segregated space. The respectful thing to do would be to KEEP OUT."

To which I responded:

"It would of course be remiss and unfair of me to reproduce that final paragraph of yours, but to substitute "white people" for "women and/or girls", "black people" for "someone with a penis", and "race" for "sex", and transfer the setting to (say) Alabama in the 1950s. But nevertheless..."

 

[LondonJohn]

There are trans-able persons also. Not gender, but 'body' dysphoria.
It is a documented and REAL disorder where they feel that part of their body needs to be removed. They seem very specific about EXACTLY where the offensive part begins and their 'real' body begins. They often just fake that this part is 'not working' so others see them as they see themselves. This is their temporary fix.

Do you relate to these persons?

Doctors don't seem to want to give them surgeries for it (ie 'do no harm'), even though they often will get to a point of such desperation to harm themselves (or rather that part of themselves) and even though studies show that they DO get better psychologically when the offending part is removed.

Uh-huh. Body dysphoria is indeed a REAL disorder (or, more accurately, it's the product of a real disorder). I don't know quite whether you think anyone actually disputes this.

But it has now been determined by several globally-important organisations, and by many major governments - based upon scientific data and expert opinion - that gender dysphoria is a genuine medical condition in itself. Not a disorder, nor the product of a disorder.


(And, incidentally, mainstream medical thinking to this effect is precisely why gender reassignment surgeons are not required to consider the "do no harm" maxim - in the way that, for example, surgeons would be required to do if someone with body dysphoria wanted their leg to be amputated. The (e.g.) removal of the male genitals of a trans woman who has been properly assessed and diagnosed (provided, of course, that this is what the trans woman wants) is the treatment of a valid medical condition, as opposed to being the treatment of an illusory belief that is itself the product of a mental disorder)

 

[Sherkeu]

That's why I said we are all on our own paths.

Some transgender people are fine just dressing as the gender they really are without any other changes, some want the whole package with hormones and surgery, some are fine with some balance between the two. Some don't feel they fit in to either ends of the gender spectrum and choose a balance there that fits them.

All are valid.

Fair enough! You do you. Good luck!
I'm not into dictating these sorts of things....until they carry some dutiful expectation for me specific to it.

What you describe seems to encompass all kinds of persons, not just 'transgenders' but the fluid, the cross-dressers, and the 'switchers' or, for the young, the pressured-but-after puberty norm. Like hippies, punks and Emo's of yesteryear. I am sure you see the trend?

Regardless, there are very very few women who were born male that I cannot sense- though not always right away. What they look like is only the first indication.
Please just do not buy into all the aspirational talk of passing and being stealth. Be realistic. We know. Most of us just know. But we will still be kind about it. Best just to be honest and proud of who you really are. that gets my respect!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well, it might be of benefit to read these links, for example:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm

Interestingly, this one seems to border on suggesting that homosexuality isn't a thing, it's actually all gender incongruence...

Animal studies have helped identify four areas of the brain with pathways leading to development of a male or female brain, and the investigators focused on those likely also present in humans. Laboratory studies have indicated that disrupting these brain pathways in males and females during this critical period results in cross sex behavior, like female rodents mounting and thrusting and males taking on a more traditional female posture when mating. These cross sex behaviors, which also have been documented in non-human primates, emerge during the natural sex hormone surge of puberty.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160620-the-complex-circumstances-that-defined-your-gender

This article points to several areas of study going on surrounding gender dysphoria, but doesn't note anything as being conclusive.

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

This one, again, points to things still under investigation. The exception, the one item that gets specific scientific notice, is about sexual behavior. It's actually the same study referenced in your first link, and goes much further to explaining homosexuality than explaining gender dysphoria.

And (though not from a primary medical perspective) this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/opinion/trans-women-feminism.html

I'll note that this opinion piece pretty much relies on the "not all women have periods" argument to come to the (errant) conclusion that there's no such thing as the lived experience of being a woman. This is really pretty much like saying that because not all black men have run-ins with the police or face discrimination, well, there's no such thing as the lived experience of black people in the US. I think we would all agree that such a sentiment is tripe.