Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[LondonJohn]

It fits my view, and I am a pro-trans intesectionalist. You are right that the second-wave feminists (or TERFs specifically, since not all feminists are like that) want to ban us completely though. But I recognize there is a social obligation on us, since I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable.

Quite. And I suggest that you are taking the moderate, sensible, sensitive approach. I believe that anyone who's not a radical, blinkered activist (on either "side" of this debate) would agree and accept that certain compromises need to be made by everyone concerned, if things are to work in a way that is at once respectful, accepting, welcoming and in good faith.

 

[Meadmaker]

- all transgender people can cross over into gendered spaces, regardless of what their genitals, mammary glands and body hair might look like; BUT the onus is then on them to ensure that they either eliminate or minimise showing any parts of their bodies which might reasonably offend others of the same gender within that space;

Sounds reasonable, at least until you think about it for a bit. So, let's think about it.

I don't know whether it was your intention, but the above sounds like the offensive aspect of sharing a locker room is that they might show their body parts, or that the showing of body parts might reasonably offend someone.

Perhaps that was just poor phrasing on your part, or perhaps you have fallen into the failure of comprehension that befalls people again and again and again on this topic. The problem is not your body parts. The problem is my body parts, with "my" being the person who is undressing, especially a woman, including a teenaged girl in that category. She is concerned that her body parts might be seen by someone she does not want to be seen by.

Remember the phrase, "Can she put the towel over her eyes?"

So, keeping the "offensive" body parts concealed is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for solving the problem. It is necessary, because as soon as the "offensive" body parts are seen, the woman who sees those parts will know that the person is male. If the body parts are concealed, it is conceivable that she won't know, and what she doesn't know won't hurt her.

However, it is not sufficient, because there may be some other way for the women to know that the transwoman in their midst is a male. This is especially important in school settings. In a high school, everyone knows that the person is male, so it wouldn't matter if the transgirl never removed a single stitch of clothing, the girls would object to her presence, because "she" is a male, and the girls do not want to take off their clothes in the presence of a male.

There is no solution to the problem that also allows the transgirl and the girls to use the same locker room. Either you have to tell the transgirl that no matter what would make her feel good, the girls do not want any male, including her, to see them undressed, so the transgirl will have to use a separate, private, facility, or you have to tell the girls that their desire to not be seen naked by someone with a penis is unworthy of consideration and their request will not be honored.

 

[d4m10n]

I recognize there is a social obligation on us, since I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable.

Have you raised this view in activist circles? If so, how did it go over?

 

[theprestige]

There is no definite criteria, that's the point, and what you are describing is definitely at odds with what "trans activists" want (or just transpeople in general.)

What you are describing is what we want to move away from, even your use of "transsexual" is an older term that more specifically applied to transpeople who have transitioned medically and/or surgically (the term isn't really used anymore.) I never use that term when describing myself.

Transgender means anybody who isn't cisgender, which is a much wider spectrum, and doesn't necessarily include medical or surgical transitioning. You and Rolfe want us to go back to how it used to be, back when it was considered a mental illness, but that isn't going to happen.

I don't want to go back to that. I want to go forward to somewhere that has clarity and makes sense.

If there's no definite criteria, then what do you say to a woman who tells you to use the men's locker room, because you don't meet her criteria for access to the woman's locker room?

 

[LondonJohn]

Sounds reasonable, at least until you think about it for a bit. So, let's think about it.

I don't know whether it was your intention, but the above sounds like the offensive aspect of sharing a locker room is that they might show their body parts, or that the showing of body parts might reasonably offend someone.

Take it up perhaps with cullennz, who repeatedly expressed concern and disgust that a preop trans woman might "wave her donger around" (charmingly put, I think you'll agree) in front of his young niece.

Perhaps that was just poor phrasing on your part, or perhaps you have fallen into the failure of comprehension that befalls people again and again and again on this topic. The problem is not your body parts. The problem is my body parts, with "my" being the person who is undressing, especially a woman, including a teenaged girl in that category. She is concerned that her body parts might be seen by someone she does not want to be seen by.

Wow. And now you should let me know on what grounds - on what reasonable grounds, that is - a woman (including a teenaged girl) should be concerned over a trans woman seeing her undressing? Who comes into the category of "someone she does not want to be seen by", and why?

Remember the phrase, "Can she put the towel over her eyes?"

And as I've said now, many times, my view is that trans women in this sort of scenario ought to understand that it's incumbent upon them to take care to avoid or minimise causing discomfort to other women. This might therefore obviously extend to averting their eyes as and when other women in the vicinity are exposing their genitals. Does that make sense?

So, keeping the "offensive" body parts concealed is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for solving the problem. It is necessary, because as soon as the "offensive" body parts are seen, the woman who sees those parts will know that the person is male. If the body parts are concealed, it is conceivable that she won't know, and what she doesn't know won't hurt her.

However, it is not sufficient, because there may be some other way for the women to know that the transwoman in their midst is a male. This is especially important in school settings. In a high school, everyone knows that the person is male, so it wouldn't matter if the transgirl never removed a single stitch of clothing, the girls would object to her presence, because "she" is a male, and the girls do not want to take off their clothes in the presence of a male.

Well then, logically, there's no possible solution to this issue whichever way you want to slice it - other than giving trans women their own separate changing room and trans men their own separate changing room. And since that's not going to happen, the only way to satisfy your conditions is to ban trans men and trans women from being able to use the changing facilities in gyms etc. Is that really what you're aiming for?

There is no solution to the problem that also allows the transgirl and the girls to use the same locker room. Either you have to tell the transgirl that no matter what would make her feel good, the girls do not want any male, including her, to see them undressed, so the transgirl will have to use a separate, private, facility, or you have to tell the girls that their desire to not be seen naked by someone with a penis is unworthy of consideration and their request will not be honored.

QED

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't want to go back to that. I want to go forward to somewhere that has clarity and makes sense.

If there's no definite criteria, then what do you say to a woman who tells you to use the men's locker room, because you don't meet her criteria for access to the woman's locker room?

I would imagine that Boudicca90 might tell that woman that she is acting in a discriminatory manner, and respectfully ask to see the facility's manager.

 

[d4m10n]

I would imagine that Boudicca90 might tell that woman that she is acting in a discriminatory manner, and respectfully ask to see the facility's manager.

The facility decided to discriminate based on sex when they created non-unisex facilities in the first place.

 

[cullennz]

Take it up perhaps with cullennz, who repeatedly expressed concern and disgust that a preop trans woman might "wave her donger around" (charmingly put, I think you'll agree) in front of his young niece.













Wow. And now you should let me know on what grounds - on what reasonable grounds, that is - a woman (including a teenaged girl) should be concerned over a trans woman seeing her undressing? Who comes into the category of "someone she does not want to be seen by", and why?













And as I've said now, many times, my view is that trans women in this sort of scenario ought to understand that it's incumbent upon them to take care to avoid or minimise causing discomfort to other women. This might therefore obviously extend to averting their eyes as and when other women in the vicinity are exposing their genitals. Does that make sense?















Well then, logically, there's no possible solution to this issue whichever way you want to slice it - other than giving trans women their own separate changing room and trans men their own separate changing room. And since that's not going to happen, the only way to satisfy your conditions is to ban trans men and trans women from being able to use the changing facilities in gyms etc. Is that really what you're aiming for?













QED

You appear to have taken offence from my donger comment.

I apologise if you found this too straight forward. As it is.

I haven't mentioned the fact my niece shouldn't have to figure out a way to undress in front of someone with one comfortably yet.

 

[Boudicca90]

Have you raised this view in activist circles? If so, how did it go over?

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by activist circles right now. I've been described now as both an activist and a moderate, so I'm not sure how you see me here. But I don't know anybody that has the view that it's perfectly okay to whip out their penis in women's facilities.

I do think I came around someone like that in one of my trans groups once, but we kicked her out for not respecting the rest of us. And then I found out she was kicked out of another trans group I used to be a part of for the same reason. So I do know people like that exist, but they have no real voice among us.

 

[Elaedith]

Wow. And now you should let me know on what grounds - on what reasonable grounds, that is - a woman (including a teenaged girl) should be concerned over a trans woman seeing her undressing? Who comes into the category of "someone she does not want to be seen by", and why?

Consider two scenarios:

a) A person born male, with male anatomy and male appearance who in his head identifies as a man, walks into a women's changing room where he undresses in front of teenage girls and sees them undress.

b)The same person, with the same male anatomy and male appearance, who in her head identifies as a woman, walks into a women's changing room where she undresses in front of teenage girls and sees them undress.

Are you saying it is difficult for you to understand why a teenage girl, or any woman, would have a problem with either of these cases? Do you think it's only a valid concern in scenario a and not b? If so, how is the woman in the changing room supposed to know whether she is entitled to be concerned, or is a bigot for being concerned, when there is no way to know whether the male in the changing room identifies as a woman or not?

 

[Boudicca90]

I would imagine that Boudicca90 might tell that woman that she is acting in a discriminatory manner, and respectfully ask to see the facility's manager.

Yep, exactly.

I'm not one for confrontation, so I would try to be as polite as possible, but I would inform someone in charge that she was discriminating against my right to be in there.

 

[MisAndreG]

Calling trans-women men is the fallacy of begging the question.




Maybe it's just my circle of friends, but the vast majority of cis-women and cis-girls I know don't mind sharing bathrooms with trans-women.

Also, your assertion that trans-women are more dangerous than cis-women is nothing short of bigotry.

Most of the women I know don’t want dudes sharing a bathroom with them. I bet there is polling on this, and I’d bet most women don’t want men sharing bathrooms with them, when, you know, they’re very vulnerable.

Men ARE more dangerous than women. I don’t see a problem with saying that.

 

[LondonJohn]

You appear to have taken offence from my donger comment.

I apologise if you found this too straight forward. As it is.

I haven't mentioned the fact my niece shouldn't have to figure out a way to undress in front of someone with one comfortably yet.

No, no, it would take a considerable amount more than that to cause me offence

I only commented on your choice of phrase because I felt that it - in and of itself - was conveying an element of hostility and discrimination towards transgender people.

And I only mentioned your thoughts on this matter again because Meadmaker had questioned why I was primarily addressing the potential offence/unease of a woman seeing a pre-op trans woman's genitals.....

But yes, I totally appreciate that it would potentially also be awkward - even distressing - for someone like your niece to remove her clothing in front of a trans woman; though as I outlined a few posts upthread, I'd suggest that a trans woman in this situation ought to be sufficiently aware and respectful as to look elsewhere if any other woman strips naked.

 

[cullennz]

No, no, it would take a considerable amount more than that to cause me offence [emoji106]



I only commented on your choice of phrase because I felt that it - in and of itself - was conveying an element of hostility and discrimination towards transgender people.



And I only mentioned your thoughts on this matter again because Meadmaker had questioned why I was primarily addressing the potential offence/unease of a woman seeing a pre-op trans woman's genitals.....



But yes, I totally appreciate that it would potentially also be awkward - even distressing - for someone like your niece to remove her clothing in front of a trans woman; though as I outlined a few posts upthread, I'd suggest that a trans woman in this situation ought to be sufficiently aware and respectful as to look elsewhere if any other woman strips naked.

All good.[emoji106]

I freely admit I can be a bit easy going with my phrasing.

I don't have any hostility or animosity towards any one btw.

People can go with whatever floats their boat.

But everyone has to try to fit in together, and there will always be people who lose out from this.

 

[LondonJohn]

Consider two scenarios:

a) A person born male, with male anatomy and male appearance who in his head identifies as a man, walks into a women's changing room where he undresses in front of teenage girls and sees them undress.

b)The same person, with the same male anatomy and male appearance, who in her head identifies as a woman, walks into a women's changing room where she undresses in front of teenage girls and sees them undress.

Are you saying it is difficult for you to understand why a teenage girl, or any woman, would have a problem with either of these cases? Do you think it's only a valid concern in scenario a and not b? If so, how is the woman in the changing room supposed to know whether she is entitled to be concerned, or is a bigot for being concerned, when there is no way to know whether the male in the changing room identifies as a woman or not?

Well firstly, I most definitely would not be an advocate of any man simply declaring that he self-identifies as a woman, and on this basis alone should justifiably gain access to a women's changing facilities. As I've already mentioned in an earlier post, I'd expect the (unwritten, but understood) social contract in areas such as this to convey the understanding that only those people who have been properly assessed by the relevant medical professional(s), and who have had their transgender wishes affirmed and endorsed by those professionals, to be permitted to access the facilities of their new declared gender.

And as I also said, I don't think it would be unreasonable under the circumstances to ask that transgender people in these sorts of situations to carry with them some form of written medical endorsement, so that they could produce it if they were challenged - and that if anyone so challenged could not (or would not) produce such documentation, they would lose the right/ability to use those facilities.

To address your other point: I've already laid out my views that - under the terms of any (unwritten but understood) social contract - the onus would be on trans women in these situations (and trans men, within men's facilities) to ensure that they took all reasonable steps to avoid causing any negative effects upon any other women in the facility. I suggested that this would include avoinding looking in the direction of any women at the point when they removed all of their clothing, and avoiding exposing their genital region to other women if at all possible (for example, by using a towel when removing underwear).

Look: everyone knows that this is a tricky and delicate subject. I'm fairly sure there will be a good deal of trial and error in an attempt to land upon a longer-term solution which satisfies and respects the POVs of all parties. But I don't believe it's beyond the wit of man (and woman, and trans man and trans woman ) to work towards reaching that equitable solution.

 

[theprestige]

I would imagine that Boudicca90 might tell that woman that she is acting in a discriminatory manner, and respectfully ask to see the facility's manager.

So? Without a definite criteria, what's the manager going to say? She can't point to a consistent policy, one way or the other.

 

[LondonJohn]

All good.[emoji106]

I freely admit I can be a bit easy going with my phrasing.

I don't have any hostility or animosity towards any one btw.

People can go with whatever floats their boat.

But everyone has to try to fit in together, and there will always be people who lose out from this.

I completely agree with all of this.

*to the tune of "Ebony and Ivory"*: "With a dick, or penis-free; live together in perfect harmony; Side by side in the women's facilities, oh Buddha; Why can't weeeeeeeee"

 

[theprestige]

Yep, exactly.

I'm not one for confrontation, so I would try to be as polite as possible, but I would inform someone in charge that she was discriminating against my right to be in there.

You don't have a right to be there, though. That's the whole point.

Or if you do have a right to be there, you haven't articulated it clearly yet.

Do all males have a right to be in women's locker rooms? You say no.

Is there a definite criteria that determines which males have the right? You say no.

What happens when it's the person in charge who says you don't have a right to be there?

You keep talking like this is all just supposed to work the way you want. But you never actually explain how or why. And without addressing the problem of other people wanting it to work differently than you want it to work.

 

[LondonJohn]

So? Without a definite criteria, what's the manager going to say? She can't point to a consistent policy, one way or the other.

Sure she can (or she should be able to, at least): she can point to the policy that trans women are allowed to use the women's facilities, so long as they don't do anything unreasonable* to offend other women or make them uneasy. Yes, it would ultimately be something of a judgement call for the manager over what is considered "unreasonable", but there could nevertheless be clear guidelines in this area.


* and "unreasonable" here would not include the simple fact of them being a trans female - rather, it would include the sorts of things I've been talking about (staring at other women when they're naked, exposing their genitals in front of other women, etc).

 

[Rolfe]

Point of information.

"Criteria" is plural. The singular is "criterion".