Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[LondonJohn]

In what sense are they mainstream science and in what sense to they say transwomen are women?

"Last year, the World Health Organization said that gender incongruence is not a mental health disorder and six years before that The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, replaced gender identity disorder with general dysphoria."

"...the World Health Organization is actively working towards declassifying transgender identity as a mental disorder, a change partially prompted by a recent study uncoupling the mental and physical health problems experienced by transgender people from their gender identity."

"...scientists do seem to have some information (informing the validity of mis-gendering) on the biological basis of several factors."

"Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men."

"No studies (attempting to validate claims that mis-gendering is a mental disorder) have been able to demonstrate this, however, and these “findings” are considered outdated and have been highly criticized for their discriminatory implications."

"...transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned. But we know now that several of those causes are biological. These individuals are not suffering a mental illness, or capriciously “choosing” a different identity."

"In women who identified as men, these regions (significant connectivity tissues within the brain) more closely resembled those of male controls, whereas in male-to-female transsexual people, the structure of these regions was halfway between that of control men and women."

"The take-home message right now is that there are undoubtedly genetic and hormonal tweaks that may push you in the male or female direction behaviourally and in terms of the brain’s microstructure, but there is a tremendous amount of plasticity"

"Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals."

"They are experiencing dysphoria because the gender they feel on the inside does not match their external sex," Theisen (Dr. J. Graham Theisen, obstetrician/gynecologist and National Institutes of Health Women's Reproductive Health Research Scholar at the Medical College of Georgia at Augusta University) says. "Once someone has a male or female brain, they have it and you are not going to change it. The goal of treatments like hormone therapy and surgery is to help their body more closely match where their brain already is."

"It doesn't matter which sex organs you have, it's whether estrogen, or androgen, which is converted to estrogen in the brain, masculinizes the brain during this critical period," says Dr. Lawrence C. Layman, chief of the MCG Section of Reproductive Endocrinology, Infertility and Genetics in the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology. "We have found variants in genes that are important in some of these different areas of the brain."

"We certainly think that for the majority of people who are experiencing gender dysphoria there is a biologic component," says Theisen. "We want to understand what the genetic component of gender identity is."



As I said, maybe you didn't read the links properly or sufficiently carefully.


Incidentally, this information resource from the World Health Organisation is also very well worth a read:

https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/

 

[Manger Douse]

Citation requested.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

"Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity."

 

[Manger Douse]

"Last year, the World Health Organization said that gender incongruence is not a mental health disorder and six years before that The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, replaced gender identity disorder with general dysphoria."

"...the World Health Organization is actively working towards declassifying transgender identity as a mental disorder, a change partially prompted by a recent study uncoupling the mental and physical health problems experienced by transgender people from their gender identity."

"...scientists do seem to have some information (informing the validity of mis-gendering) on the biological basis of several factors."

"Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men."

"No studies (attempting to validate claims that mis-gendering is a mental disorder) have been able to demonstrate this, however, and these “findings” are considered outdated and have been highly criticized for their discriminatory implications."

"...transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned. But we know now that several of those causes are biological. These individuals are not suffering a mental illness, or capriciously “choosing” a different identity."

"In women who identified as men, these regions (significant connectivity tissues within the brain) more closely resembled those of male controls, whereas in male-to-female transsexual people, the structure of these regions was halfway between that of control men and women."

"The take-home message right now is that there are undoubtedly genetic and hormonal tweaks that may push you in the male or female direction behaviourally and in terms of the brain’s microstructure, but there is a tremendous amount of plasticity"

"Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals."

"They are experiencing dysphoria because the gender they feel on the inside does not match their external sex," Theisen (Dr. J. Graham Theisen, obstetrician/gynecologist and National Institutes of Health Women's Reproductive Health Research Scholar at the Medical College of Georgia at Augusta University) says. "Once someone has a male or female brain, they have it and you are not going to change it. The goal of treatments like hormone therapy and surgery is to help their body more closely match where their brain already is."

"It doesn't matter which sex organs you have, it's whether estrogen, or androgen, which is converted to estrogen in the brain, masculinizes the brain during this critical period," says Dr. Lawrence C. Layman, chief of the MCG Section of Reproductive Endocrinology, Infertility and Genetics in the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology. "We have found variants in genes that are important in some of these different areas of the brain."

"We certainly think that for the majority of people who are experiencing gender dysphoria there is a biologic component," says Theisen. "We want to understand what the genetic component of gender identity is."



As I said, maybe you didn't read the links properly or sufficiently carefully.


Incidentally, this information resource from the World Health Organisation is also very well worth a read:

https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/

Some transgender woman may slightly have women's brains according to preliminary studies is not exactly transwomen are women according to mainstream science. Are you proposing we check before such individuals are allowed in changing rooms or participate in sporting events with women?

 

[LondonJohn]

Sleazy sophistry.

Self-ID gives permission to any man to enter a woman's locker room and makes challenging them much harder. Challenging them could even get you arrested.

Girls have been reprimanded for objecting to having boys in their spaces at school and told to go and change somewhere else themselves ... and undergo some sensitivity training. That's the kind of obnoxious crap you are supporting

LOL at "sleazy sophistry"

But your last paragraph is, of course, throwing a nice big strawman in my general direction. If you'd read and taken in the several posts of mine within this thread which explicitly gave my views concerning this very type of situation, you'd have known this already.

And your penultimate paragraph is intrinsically wrong. Plus, again, I'd refer you to posts that I and others have already made within this thread, which specifically discuss this matter (for example, it should be a perfectly reasonable demand of trans women that they possess official endorsement of their trans status, that they must obtain prior clearance to use the women's facilities on that basis, and that they must be prepared to provide such evidence if challenged (or, if not, they must be prepared to leave the women's facilities)).

 

[LondonJohn]

Some transgender woman may slightly have women's brains according to preliminary studies is not exactly transwomen are women according to mainstream science. Are you proposing we check before such individuals are allowed in changing rooms or participate in sporting events with women?

No - but the summation of the evidence and expert opinion lead to the conclusion that trans women should be considered to be women.

(Check out that quote about the World Health Organisation's position on this, plus the WHO link I provided, plus the medico-legal frameworks which now exist in countries such as the US or UK, if you would like specific evidence that mainstream science supports the validity of gender dysphoria, and the validity of (eg) trans women being women....)


ETA: anyhow, ciao for now - things like work (and, for that matter, a work/life balance ) are calling. Back later xxx

 

[Manger Douse]

No - but the summation of the evidence and expert opinion lead to the conclusion that trans women should be considered to be women.

(Check out that quote about the World Health Organisation's position on this, plus the WHO link I provided, plus the medico-legal frameworks which now exist in countries such as the US or UK, if you would like specific evidence that mainstream science supports the validity of gender dysphoria, and the validity of (eg) trans women being women....)

No one has denied gender dysphoria exists - it doesn't mean transwomen are women

 

[LondonJohn]

No one has denied gender dysphoria exists - it doesn't mean transwomen are women

Uhh, yes it does: the two are logically intertwined.

 

[Manger Douse]

Uhh, yes it does: the two are logically intertwined.

Errr no it doesn't - transwomen are still different to women. Considering them as women doesn't change the fact that they are still far likely to be physically stronger than women for example

 

[d4m10n]

It would of course be remiss and unfair of me to reproduce that final paragraph of yours, but to substitute "white people" for "women and/or girls", "black people" for "someone with a penis", and "race" for "sex", and transfer the setting to (say) Alabama in the 1950s. But nevertheless...

If your analogy hinges on treating a group with much less political power and influence (e.g. women) as if they were actually the dominant group (e.g. whites) your analogy has some serious structural issues.

 

[Earthborn]

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

"Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity."

Doesn't show that misgendering someone is a criminal offence.

 

[Manger Douse]

Doesn't show that misgendering someone is a criminal offence.

"..transgender identity or perceived transgender identity"isn't misgendering someone?

 

[Earthborn]

".."isn't misgendering someone?

No. The section is quite clear. It doesn't tell you what is a criminal offence, only when a criminal offence is a hate crime.

First you need a criminal offence, then you have to determine the motivation for that crime. If the crime is motivated by hate (for example for someone's transgender identity or perceived transgender identity) then it is a hate crime.

If you commit a crime against someone motivated by hate of someone's transgender identity or perceived transgender identity, it is a hate crime even if you don't misgender that person.

 

[Manger Douse]

No. The section is quite clear. It doesn't tell you what is a criminal offence, only when a criminal offence is a hate crime.

First you need a criminal offence, then you have to determine the motivation for that crime. If the crime is motivated by hate (for example for someone's transgender identity or perceived transgender identity) then it is a hate crime.

If you commit a crime against someone motivated by hate of someone's transgender identity or perceived transgender identity, it is a hate crime even if you don't misgender that person.

So its a hate crime to misgender a transwoman but not to misgender a woman then?

 

[Earthborn]

So its a hate crime to misgender a transwoman but not to misgender a woman then?

No, it is only a hate crime, if you first can show that it is a crime.

That is something you haven't shown.

 

[Manger Douse]

No, it is only a hate crime, if you first can show that it is a crime.

That is something you haven't shown.

Give me an example

 

[MisAndreG]

It sounds like you may need some information and education on transgender issues: what they actually are, how mainstream medicine approaches the subject, and how the law approaches the subject.

Because what I'm reading here appears to be the product of ignorance and prejudice.

Huh?

My argument is that the mainstream medical profession has, for some time now, understood and accepted that transgender issues are a real thing - as opposed to being the product of some sort of mental illness.

By contrast, I'm 100% certain that the mainstream medical profession has never either understood or accepted that the issue of a person of one ethnicity believing that they're of another ethnicity... is anything other than the product of some sort of mental illness.

And this informs my own belief and argument.

Huh? My argument is that if the Woke position, not your position, is that all identities are social constructs and therefore fluid where anyone can become anything they want, and there is less evidence for a genetic component to race than there is sex, which means it should be more fluid than sex, then they should be okay with white people becoming black.

 

[MisAndreG]

It sounds like you may need some information and education on transgender issues: what they actually are, how mainstream medicine approaches the subject, and how the law approaches the subject.

Because what I'm reading here appears to be the product of ignorance and prejudice.

Jeez. I know what trans people actually are — that’s the issue here, really.

This is off topic, are you a lawyer? You have that mental sharpness about you lawyers typically have.

 

[zooterkin]

Give me an example

Your claim, your burden of proof.

 

[Lithrael]

Re: it has to be a crime to be a hate crime:

If you as a private individual are handing out cookies, and you don’t give one to Becky cause Becky bugs you and you don’t give one to Jennifer because Jennifer is trans, no crimes have been committed.

If you slap Becky across the face because Becky stole your cookie recipe and you slap Jennifer across the face because Jennifer is trans, two crimes have been committed and one of them would be a hate crime under such legislation.

If you misgender someone and it’s not idk, part of a campagin of harassment, it’s not a crime so it can’t be a hate crime. If you misgender a cis person as part of a campaign of harassment, it could fall afoul or regular harassment laws but wouldn’t be a hate crime unless some protected class type stuff was also going on.

 

[zooterkin]

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

"Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity."

That's only saying that a crime is a hate crime if motivated by hostility or prejudice because someone is or is perceived to be trans.

It does not, in any way, say that misgendering someone is a crime, per se. Misgendering could certainly be part of an assault, and an indication that the victim's trans status was the motivating factor, but that's a different thing.