Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[The Atheist]

Are you kidding? That's literally the foundation of many of these arguments.

Show me where that has happened in any of the three iterations of this thread.

It is bollocks.

 

[Roboramma]

Biological males are men, except when they are trans-women. Then they're women.

Do you have a coherent definition of woman that you're working with here?

 

[caveman1917]

There is no "my view" about it, it's a fact that some men will pose as women for the sole purpose of being able to enter women's spaces.

About 3% of the population is an exhibitionist/voyeur. About 0.3% of the population is transgender. If even only 1 in 10 perverts would take advantage of the situation to enter female-only locker rooms, then the group of male people entering female-only locker rooms on the basis of "I'm a woman" would be split about 50/50 between perverts and genuine trans women.

 

[MisAndreG]

Except we're not talking about dudes, we're talking about trans-women.



Again, not men. Trans-women.



Again, not men. Trans-women.

Everything you say is predicated on misgendering trans-women as men.

And you know that, so what's the point?

Everything I say is predicated on accurately categorizing males as men. Have a nice one.

 

[cullennz]

It's a bit of an odd argument to me.

Trans women can't keep using the blokes as "women" they will be victimised.

They must use the chicks as there is no chance females will be victimised by trans females.

Trans females must be the most peaceful. Never do anything wrong people on earth

 

[MisAndreG]

Nice emoji - but I'd (genuinely) be interested to hear a fuller response from you on this matter.

My thoughts are that I think that body of evidence is dubious, but let’s say I think it isn’t — there is less evidence for a genetic component to race than sex, and that if Wokes, for lack of a better term, are going to be okay with men becoming women they should likewise be okay with white women becoming black women. But they’re not because of the reasons in my op we’re talking about. I also think you’re one of those super smart people who can argue any point and that kind of intimidated me, but that’s w/e

 

[Manger Douse]

About 3% of the population is an exhibitionist/voyeur. About 0.3% of the population is transgender. If even only 1 in 10 perverts would take advantage of the situation to enter female-only locker rooms, then the group of male people entering female-only locker rooms on the basis of "I'm a woman" would be split about 50/50 between perverts and genuine trans women.

We submitted Freedom of Information requests to the Ministry of Justice.

It said that 60 of the 125 transgender inmates it counted in England and Wales were serving time for a sexual offence.
Of the 60 serving time for sexual offences:

27 were convicted of rape (plus a further five of attempted rape)
13 were convicted of possessing, distributing or making indecent images of children
13 were convicted of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault
Nine were convicted of causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
Seven were convicted of sexual activity with a child
Seven were convicted of indecent assault or gross indecency
Those numbers add up to more than 60 because some prisoners are serving time for more than one offence.

It won't include transgender people who haven't identified themselves to the prison service or who already have a gender recognition certificate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

 

[d4m10n]

Biological males are men, except when they are trans-women. Then they're women.

Do you have a coherent definition of woman that you're working with here?

I'd like to hear this as well.

Needs to be something more than people who self-identify in order to make the categories of "men" and "women" more meaningful than self-selected fandoms, e.g. Chicago Bears fans.

 

[MisAndreG]

Look, I’ll admit that I think all of this trans stuff is nonsense. Bathrooms and changing rooms are an easy solution - use the one congruent with your sex. Same with pronouns and sports and the rest of the things everyone argues about. You want to be a bloke who wears dresses — more power to you! You want to be a bloke who makes people treat you as if you are a women — kick rocks!

 

[MisAndreG]

Segregationists in the United States tried to use similar arguments to keep Black and white people from mixing, claiming that the higher rate of violence among Blacks justified segregation to protect them from brutalizing "innocent white women".

It was wrong then, and it is wrong now.

The audacity of TRAs to compare their manufactured issues to the civil rights movement!

How dare you think you have the right to invade spaces women fought so damn hard for against literal and actual patriarchy because deluded men who wear what they think is a women costume and take hormones have will have their feefees hurt if they don’t get to. The sheer gall.

You know what I’m going to go before I get REALLY disrespectful.

 

[The Atheist]

About 3% of the population is an exhibitionist/voyeur. About 0.3% of the population is transgender. If even only 1 in 10 perverts would take advantage of the situation to enter female-only locker rooms, then the group of male people entering female-only locker rooms on the basis of "I'm a woman" would be split about 50/50 between perverts and genuine trans women.

Sounds perfectly feasible.

It's a bit of an odd argument to me.

Trans women can't keep using the blokes as "women" they will be victimised.

They must use the chicks as there is no chance females will be victimised by trans females.

And the obvious answer of having a separate facility for "non-binary" people having their own rooms isn't enough.

I sense a large helping of having one's cake and eating it too.

 

[Boudicca90]

The audacity of TRAs to compare their manufactured issues to the civil rights movement!

How dare you think you have the right to invade spaces women fought so damn hard for against literal and actual patriarchy because deluded men who wear what they think is a women costume and take hormones have will have their feefees hurt if they don’t get to. The sheer gall.

You know what I’m going to go before I get REALLY disrespectful.

Just because you don't see the parallels with other civil rights movements due to your bias, doesn't mean they aren't there.

I have said before how the arguments made against us are extremely similar to what I heard about gays and lesbians, having had those arguments used against me serving in the military. And one of the arguments I heard frequently was the fear that we perverted gays will rape the rest of them in the latrines and dorms if we are treated equally.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

 

[Manger Douse]

The audacity of TRAs to compare their manufactured issues to the civil rights movement!

How dare you think you have the right to invade spaces women fought so damn hard for against literal and actual patriarchy because deluded men who wear what they think is a women costume and take hormones have will have their feefees hurt if they don’t get to. The sheer gall.

You know what I’m going to go before I get REALLY disrespectful.

If black people were responsible for 99% of the crime against whites and had oppressed them for thousands of years there might have been a point. Some black women I've seen speak about this behaviour of using the black struggle to promote an unrelated cause use the term "muleling"

 

[zooterkin]

Except we're not talking about dudes, we're talking about trans-women.



Again, not men. Trans-women.



Again, not men. Trans-women.

Everything you say is predicated on misgendering trans-women as men.

And you know that, so what's the point?

And what definition of ‘trans-woman’ are you using?

 

[cullennz]

Except we're not talking about dudes, we're talking about trans-women.







Again, not men. Trans-women.







Again, not men. Trans-women.



Everything you say is predicated on misgendering trans-women as men.



And you know that, so what's the point?

Depends whether they are talking sex or gender

 

[Cavemonster]

Look, I’ll admit that I think all of this trans stuff is nonsense. Bathrooms and changing rooms are an easy solution - use the one congruent with your sex. Same with pronouns and sports and the rest of the things everyone argues about. You want to be a bloke who wears dresses — more power to you! You want to be a bloke who makes people treat you as if you are a women — kick rocks!

Ok, let's say the rule is that bathrooms and changing spaces must be segregated by sex.

That means Buck Angel, pictured in my link, who has female chromosomes, a vagina but identifies as a man anh has undergone surgery and hormone therapy to live as a man MUST use the women's facilities.

https://www.graphis.com/entry/3b30abbe-f9cc-446c-ba43-c1d422cf58fc/

All trans men, many of whom are bearded and in other ways fully resemble men MUST use the women's facilities.

This is important apparently, for the comfort of women who don't want men in their spaces and to keep cis men from sneaking in. Although it seems to me that insisting that trans men MUST use women's facilities, people who often look and dress like cis men, that would make it easier for any voyeaur to sneak in. Unless someone is checking genitals at the door, which I don't know if you're recommending.

Again and again, people forget about the existence of trans men.

 

[Roboramma]

Keeping women's spaces women only doesn't necessitate men's spaces being men only. It's possible to allow trans men to use men's changing rooms while still keeping women's changing rooms segregated by sex.

 

[LondonJohn]

About 3% of the population is an exhibitionist/voyeur. About 0.3% of the population is transgender. If even only 1 in 10 perverts would take advantage of the situation to enter female-only locker rooms, then the group of male people entering female-only locker rooms on the basis of "I'm a woman" would be split about 50/50 between perverts and genuine trans women.

As both Mycroft and I have now pointed out, any men who have a desire to rape women in the women's changing rooms do not need to pretend they're trans women in order to carry out their rape.

They can simply walk through the unlocked door, straight into the women's changing room, and go about their disgusting business. As men. As cis men. And they could have done so at literally any time in the last few hundred years (or whenever gender-segregated changing rooms were first introduced...).

And as Mycroft correctly also pointed out: in fact, any men with a desire to rape women in the women's locker room would - if they stopped for a moment to think it through - be far better off NOT attempting to deceptively pose as trans women, as they'd likely face a higher chance of identification and discovery if they did so. They'd be far better off (from their criminal perspective) just walking into the women's changing rooms as the cis men that they are.

 

[LondonJohn]

My thoughts are that I think that body of evidence is dubious, but let’s say I think it isn’t — there is less evidence for a genetic component to race than sex, and that if Wokes, for lack of a better term, are going to be okay with men becoming women they should likewise be okay with white women becoming black women. But they’re not because of the reasons in my op we’re talking about. I also think you’re one of those super smart people who can argue any point and that kind of intimidated me, but that’s w/e

Huh?

My argument is that the mainstream medical profession has, for some time now, understood and accepted that transgender issues are a real thing - as opposed to being the product of some sort of mental illness.

By contrast, I'm 100% certain that the mainstream medical profession has never either understood or accepted that the issue of a person of one ethnicity believing that they're of another ethnicity... is anything other than the product of some sort of mental illness.

And this informs my own belief and argument.

 

[LondonJohn]

Look, I’ll admit that I think all of this trans stuff is nonsense. Bathrooms and changing rooms are an easy solution - use the one congruent with your sex. Same with pronouns and sports and the rest of the things everyone argues about. You want to be a bloke who wears dresses — more power to you! You want to be a bloke who makes people treat you as if you are a women — kick rocks!

It sounds like you may need some information and education on transgender issues: what they actually are, how mainstream medicine approaches the subject, and how the law approaches the subject.

Because what I'm reading here appears to be the product of ignorance and prejudice.