Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Elagabalus]

I question how dangerous it is to enter the Men's room. If men are so dangerous, why do women want to have them in their own restrooms!?? Does wearing a dress and wig change things so enormously from the other penis people in the adjacent room?

It seems most violent encounters happen in bars/clubs where the transwoman is operating as a sex worker. Almost all of the deaths are from this as well- and the vast majority are black transwomen.

I havent heard very many instances outside of that scenario.

Are we going back to the Men's Room/Ladies Room thing? Cuz Harbor Freight and Target have got you covered.

Just for fun

https://www.bitchute.com/video/8JGgVcdzrUU8/

 

[Rolfe]

I'll ask again. Given that transwomen can pee just as easily in the gents as in the ladies, why do they demand to pee in the ladies?

 

[Earthborn]

I'll ask again. Given that transwomen can pee just as easily in the gents as in the ladies, why do they demand to pee in the ladies?

Because they don't want to out themselves as transwomen. Because they want to go where they raise the fewest eyebrows or elicit the most comments. Because they don't want to look weird.

 

[Rolfe]

Sorry, that's simply wrong. That may be the case for a very few, but the vast majority are patently and obviously men, and we are now seeing demands from men with beards who have no intention of even trying to LARP "woman" that they should have entry as of right to all female spaces.

The very few who can "pass" in a female-only space without setting off anyone's antennae on this are not the problem, and they aren't going to be noticed anyway.

 

[Elagabalus]

I'll ask again. Given that transwomen can pee just as easily in the gents as in the ladies, why do they demand to pee in the ladies?

Because it's the Unisex bathroom. If it is occupied, you'll have to wait for whomever is in there to finish and open the door before you are allowed to go in. "Scary scary"

 

[Rolfe]

Are we seriously back to "I'll be beaten up by other men if I use the gents"?

I repeat, your first answer was nonsense, because if women couldn't tell that these men weren't women, you wouldn't be getting any push-back because nobody would actually notice.

Your second answer has been discussed and disproved very recently in the thread. Men who appear effeminate are not at risk in the gents in developed western countries in the 21st century.

 

[Boudicca90]

Because they don't want to out themselves as transwomen. Because they want to go where they raise the fewest eyebrows or elicit the most comments. Because they don't want to look weird.

Exactly. I don't use urinals and never liked using them in the first place, I've always preferred to sit down to pee. And yes, I am ashamed of having a penis and I don't want anybody knowing what genitals I have.

I have no problem with getting rid of my penis, and I know my life would be easier if I had a vagina, but I have cost and safety concerns about the surgery which keeps me on the fence.

And being forced to use the men's room may or may not put me in danger, it really depends on the type of men in there. But I don't belong there, as much as a trans man doesn't belong in women's facilities, and I would be extremely uncomfortable and apprehensive. Much like how I felt when I first starting using women's facilities before HRT made it so I belonged in there without feeling worried.

 

[Earthborn]

The vast majority who are patently and obviously men with beards who have no intention of even trying to LARP "woman" do not demand that they should have entry as of right to all female spaces.

If you look closely you may see that you sometimes share the ladies room with someone who made an honest but not superconvincing attempt at looking like a woman. Assuming it is a busy place where you actually have a chance more than one person enters at a time.

The very few who can "pass" in a female-only space without setting off anyone's antennae on this are not the problem, and they aren't going to be noticed anyway.

And yet you demand they to go the gents anyway.

 

[Boudicca90]

The vast majority who are patently and obviously men with beards who have no intention of even trying to LARP "woman" do not demand that they should have entry as of right to all female spaces.

If you look closely you may see that you sometimes share the ladies room with someone who made an honest but not superconvincing attempt at looking like a woman. Assuming it is a busy place where you actually have a chance more than one person enters at a time.

And yet you demand they to go the gents anyway.

Yep, unfortunately there are a lot of inaccurate stereotypes about us like what Rolfe and her allies like to spew.

I am very passable even without any surgeries, in fact my last job was working mostly with women at an animal shelter and according to my friend who also worked there at the time, nobody knew. And we had another trans woman who worked there, and she transitioned later in life so you could still tell, but she was a woman just the same and treated the same.

For me, I transitioned earlier than a lot of my friends, and was never very masculine in the first place, so it made it easier. Luckily this will become more common as people transition earlier. I know if I had the information and support trans kids and teens have now, I would have transitioned back then like I wanted to. And I would have ended up with a better life, instead of a lot of alcoholism and suicide attempts due to trying to hide in the closet.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yep, unfortunately there are a lot of inaccurate stereotypes about us like this.

I am very passable even without any surgeries, in fact my last job was working mostly with women at an animal shelter and according to my friend who also worked there at the time, nobody knew. And we had another trans woman who worked there, and she transitioned later in life so you could still tell, but she was a woman just the same and treated the same.

For me, I transitioned earlier than a lot of my friends, and was never very masculine in the first place, so it made it easier. Luckily this will become more common as people transition earlier. I know if I had the information and support trans kids and teens have now, I would have transitioned back then like I wanted to. And I would have ended up with a better life, instead of a lot of alcoholism and suicide attempts due to trying to hide in the closet.

I have to say that I'm surprised at some of the views (especially the ones verging on the downright hostile) that have been expressed in this thread.

If one accepts that transgender issues are genuine, and that there are people who genuinely feel that they've been born with the wrong gender and have sought to correct this, then I just can't understand the opposition to treating trans women as women (and trans men as men) as far as is possible.

I would also add that, given the example of changing room disquiet etc, if a trans woman were using the women's changing rooms (as she should be allowed to do), but if that trans woman was making other women justifiably uncomfortable, then the uncomfortable women should absolutely have recourse to alerting staff to request that the trans woman either deports herself in a way that doesn't make other women uncomfortable, or she should leave the changing room.

To take another example to try to explain what I mean: imagine that a group of men were changing in a gym changing room; imagine if another man came in, got naked, but then remained naked and started walking round the changing room and looking at all the other guys as they changed. The other men would have the right to ask staff to tell the man to modify his behaviour or leave the changing room.

And likewise, I don't think it's wrong or offensive to ask of trans women that they remain conscious at all times of other women's feelings and sensibilities - such that, for example, within changing rooms, they take reasonable steps not to make other women uncomfortable (by eg using a towel when changing, and so on).

I'd have thought this would serve as a reasonable solution which tried to take accounts of everyone's reasonable feelings and sensitivity.

 

[Earthborn]

I repeat, your first answer was nonsense, because if women couldn't tell that these men weren't women, you wouldn't be getting any push-back because nobody would actually notice.

You are offering plenty of push-back, so I'll have to ask: where do you even go where you meet all these super-obvious men with beards in the ladies room? Must be a wild place.

 

[Boudicca90]

I have to say that I'm surprised at some of the views (especially the ones verging on the downright hostile) that have been expressed in this thread.

If one accepts that transgender issues are genuine, and that there are people who genuinely feel that they've been born with the wrong gender and have sought to correct this, then I just can't understand the opposition to treating trans women as women (and trans men as men) as far as is possible.

I would also add that, given the example of changing room disquiet etc, if a trans woman were using the women's changing rooms (as she should be allowed to do), but if that trans woman was making other women justifiably uncomfortable, then the uncomfortable women should absolutely have recourse to alerting staff to request that the trans woman either deports herself in a way that doesn't make other women uncomfortable, or she should leave the changing room.

To take another example to try to explain what I mean: imagine that a group of men were changing in a gym changing room; imagine if another man came in, got naked, but then remained naked and started walking round the changing room and looking at all the other guys as they changed. The other men would have the right to ask staff to tell the man to modify his behaviour or leave the changing room.

And likewise, I don't think it's wrong or offensive to ask of trans women that they remain conscious at all times of other women's feelings and sensibilities - such that, for example, within changing rooms, they take reasonable steps not to make other women uncomfortable (by eg using a towel when changing, and so on).

I'd have thought this would serve as a reasonable solution which tried to take accounts of everyone's reasonable feelings and sensitivity.

I agree with all of this, and it is what I try to do.

An important moment for me was when I went to a spa for the first time. I was nervous because I didn't know if I would be seen and accepted as a woman by other women and I made sure there were private changing rooms so no cisgender woman would have to see my penis or feel uncomfortable around me. It went really well and helped to affirm my womanhood, and that kind of thing is extremely important to us.

I always try to be respectful of the people around me and would want others to do the same.

 

[d4m10n]

If one accepts that transgender issues are genuine, and that there are people who genuinely feel that they've been born with the wrong gender and have sought to correct this, then I just can't understand the opposition to treating trans women as women (and trans men as men) as far as is possible.

Quite a lot can be squeezed into the highlighted bit. "As far as is possible" implies that male-presenting folks like Seani shouldn't hesitate before using the ladies' facilities if that's what they'd prefer to do.

 

[Earthborn]

Transgender activists don't just want to be who they want to be, they want to be accepted into the gender category they (believe they) are.

FTFY. Or alternatively getting rid of such gender categories altogether.

And yes, when it comes to situations where biology is important, then it's biology that is important.

When it comes to in which pot one pees, biological sex is not important.

It's akin to the five-foot-tall customer insisting on being allowed on to the ride where the minimum height is five feet six.

Where do you even go where the minimum height is 167 centimeters... Must be a wild place, pity I can't come, I'm a centimeter too short.

 

[LondonJohn]

FTFY. Or alternatively getting rid of such gender categories altogether.

When it comes to in which pot one pees, biological sex is not important.

Where do you even go where the minimum height is 167 centimeters... Must be a wild place, pity I can't come, I'm a centimeter too short.

As Bill Hicks once said: "It's just a ride!" (But he didn't add the minimum height requirement rider )

 

[Earthborn]

"As far as is possible" implies that male-presenting folks like Seani shouldn't hesitate before using the ladies' facilities if that's what they'd prefer to do.

They could easily pass for a transman, which I was assured women would be totally fine sharing the ladies room with...

 

[Meadmaker]

I have to say that I'm surprised at some of the views (especially the ones verging on the downright hostile) that have been expressed in this thread.

I think the downright hostile ones are a result of accepting the more reasonable requests and trying to be accommodating and understanding.

Being accepting of the typical case starts on a slippery slope to being sued by Yaniv for refusing to wax his balls.

To take another example to try to explain what I mean: imagine that a group of men were changing in a gym changing room; imagine if another man came in, got naked, but then remained naked and started walking round the changing room and looking at all the other guys as they changed.

And we're back to this. What if I just choose a locker next to someone else, and we are both going to take a shower after working out. We're both going to end up naked and we're both going to end up able to see that person's privates. Even if we follow modern customs and put a towel on to walk across the room, between the time that we take off the undies and the time we put on a towel, we're naked.

That's why we have locker rooms. Something is going to be show to the people nearby, and you can't call the management to complain, because that is what is supposed to happen in locker rooms. That's the whole point of the locker room.

So yes, women don't want to show their stuff to men, even if they don't have to show it for long, and it isn't just some creepy person wandering around deliberately looking for naked people who is going to see it.

Building additional privacy areas into the locker room would solve the problem, but just denying that anyone will see what they see in a typical locker room isn't going to solve the problem.

 

[d4m10n]

They could easily pass for a transman, which I was assured women would be totally fine sharing the ladies room with...

Seems a bit iffy to me. No one should have to lie about their sex in order to be accepted, right?

 

[Rolfe]

They're as safe in the gents as in the ladies. They can pee just as easily in the gents as in the ladies. Remind me again why it's so important for them to have access to the ladies? And don't give me this guff about "fitting in" there. They don't fit in there. That is exactly the problem.

 

[p0lka]

I was thinking about this while driving to Ikea, and indeed it doesn't make any sense when you unpack it.

I'm a woman because my body is female. It doesn't matter whether I'm happy about that or not, it's the way it is. It's the same as observing that I'm white, and I'm 170 cm tall and I take a size 37 in shoes. The way I think about myself and the way I operate in society is informed by all of these things, because my body is me and that's what my body is like.

What if I insisited that I was "really" 185 cm? And I insisted you had to treat me as if I was 185 cm? How would that work? Maybe you'd talk over the top of my head, you could do that. Maybe I'd get all huffy if you laughed at me for wearing clothes that were way too big for me, but I'm sure you could manage not to do that. But if you were in charge of a ride where the minimum height was 180 cm, should you let me on?

I don't know what it's like to be 185 cm, or to have size 42 feet, or to be black, because I'm none of these things. I might imagine I knew, but it would only be my imagination because I have no experience of actually being that way, nor can I have. I don't see how believing you're the opposite sex is any different.

You like frilly blouses and makeup and high heels and nail varnish? News flash, that just means that you like frilly blouses and makeup and high heels and nail varnish. Lots of women don't. They're still women. Some men do like these things, they're still men.

I don't know what else there is. There is no "essence of womanhood" that is separate from actually living in a body that is female, just as there is no essence of height that is separate from living in a body that's a certain height. Liking things you perceive are popular with taller or shorter people doesn't make you a different height. Liking things you perceive are popular with women doesn't make you a woman.

Absolutely everything anyone has ever claimed as "evidence" that they were allegedly born in the wrong body, or are in some way "really" a woman, boils down either to this nonexistent "essence of womanhood" or to the regressive gender stereotypes of categorising women as people who behave in a certain way or like certain things.

Women would rather like to get away from these stereotypes, where they're not expected automatically to be kind, caring, nurturing, passive, to put men first, to like dressing up in a certain way and to have certain colour or other preferences. They'd like to be themselves, as they are, and particularly not to be criticised for being themselves in a way that would not be criticised in a man. (We're back to an assertive girl is bossy but an assertive boy is the boss.)

Gender ideology is the most regressive, stereotyping thing there is. It couldn't exist without these restrictive boundaries society imposes on females (and males, come to that - big boys do cry). The sooner everyone is free to have whatever personality and preferences they like without being judged and pigeon-holed because of them, the better.


ETA: Not that long ago, in Britain, a woman politician was asked to define "woman". She came out with a load of sexist, regressinve crap about a woman being someone who is kind, caring, nurturing, blah blah blah. Do I even have to point out the ridiculousness of that? What about women who aren't these things? Are they men? What about men who are - and thankfully despite this woman's idiotic outlook, very many men are. Should we change all their birth certificates to say they were born as girls? And then there's the delicious irony that very many transwomen appear to be none of these things.

I brought this up when talking to my son that is a daughter now,

why feel a need to fit into a particular category and have a label?
wouldn't it be better to just be yourself and everyone else has to get used to it.

It's why I don't think the T has the same motivations and should not be a part of the rest of the LGB.

LGB wants to change perceptions and move forward,
T just wants to fit in,
not really a common goal.

really tempted to link to 'jessie j who you are' song about now.