Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Earthborn]

It is something for society as a whole to get to grips with,

It is something society has come to grips with decades ago. You want to reverse it. Good news: with Brexiteers actively undermining the juridiction of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK, soon you can!

 

[Rolfe]

I am not wanting to wash my hands of them.

They are welcome to just use the dudes.

It is you that has an issue. Which I understand and tend to have sympathy for. But it is your issue.

I've already said ages ago just have non binary gender bogs added to the m and f

Sure, I have an issue. I have an issue with men who want an unfettered right of entry into female-only spaces. However this issue is not solely between women and those particular men, it also involves the rest of society, and in particular the group of powerful and influential men who work to facilitate the entry of males into female spaces, and call women who object bigots and haters and pass laws to restrict their speech and have them dismissed from their jobs.

It's an issue for all of society. You may not personally be bothered, but it is the actions of many men (by no means all trans) who have created and are perpetuating this problem, so you can't just say it's an issue for women to sort out with the fake women.

 

[caveman1917]

It is something society has come to grips with decades ago. You want to reverse it. Good news: with Brexiteers actively undermining the juridiction of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK, soon you can!

Schrodinger's trans: Simultaneously already well-accepted in society and female single-sex spaces decades ago and the most oppressed and discriminated against group on the planet.

 

[Rolfe]

It is something society has come to grips with decades ago. You want to reverse it. Good news: with Brexiteers actively undermining the juridiction of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK, soon you can!

See my post about legal fictions, and about the recent and current drives to have these fictions seen as defining reality.

This was by no means sorted out decades ago. Some reasonable concessions were made decades ago which are now being extended and abused. These things can indeed be opposed and reversed.

 

[cullennz]

That isn't the words I used and feminists who go on about terfs are women

 

[Rolfe]

Schrodinger's trans: Simultaneously well-accepted in society and female single-sex spaces decades ago and the most oppressed and discriminated against group on the planet.

That's one of the things I love about this forum. I think I've figured out my position on some tendentious piece of nonsence, and then someone comes along and expresses it all so much better than me.

 

[Earthborn]

You don't need "cis" on anything to be perfectly clear.

The fact that there are transwomen who call themselves women, and transmen who call themselves men, disproves that calling yourself "woman" perfectly clearly communicates that you are not trans.

 

[Rolfe]

That isn't the words I used and feminists who go on about terfs are women

I don't think we're actually arguing here. I appreciate that there are some thoroughly brainwashed women doing the trans lobby's job for them, I'm in a political party that seems to be being run by a bunch of them at the moment. But you already included "women" in your group of people whose business it is. I'm just saying there is no group of people who are outside this debate, it involves every group in society.

 

[cullennz]

Sure, I have an issue. I have an issue with men who want an unfettered right of entry into female-only spaces. However this issue is not solely between women and those particular men, it also involves the rest of society, and in particular the group of powerful and influential men who work to facilitate the entry of males into female spaces, and call women who object bigots and haters and pass laws to restrict their speech and have them dismissed from their jobs.

It's an issue for all of society. You may not personally be bothered, but it is the actions of many men (by no means all trans) who have created and are perpetuating this problem, so you can't just say it's an issue for women to sort out with the fake women.

Apologies.

That was harsh.

But the people who have the issue are females.

Dudes don't give a crap.

I'll happily support not wanting dudes who decide they are female in their well earned spaces, but at the end of the day men don't run them. Females do.

 

[Rolfe]

The fact that there are transwomen who call themselves women, and transmen who call themselves men, disproves that calling yourself "woman" perfectly clearly communicates that you are not trans.

You may want to surrender everything to trans demands, even language. You don't get to demand that everyone else agree with you. If I called myself a cat, would we suddenly have to find another word for cats to make it clear we weren't including crazy cat-ladies?

 

[Rolfe]

Apologies.

That was harsh.

But the people who have the issue are females.

Dudes don't give a crap.

I'll happily support not wanting dudes who decide they are female in their well earned spaces, but at the end of the day men don't run them. Females do.

"Dudes don't give a crap." You can see from this thread that that's not true. We have a number of men lining up to tell women that they must capitulate to trans demands and do it with a smile and unresenvedly or else they're bigots and haters. There may be plenty individual men who are entirely relaxed about the issue, but men as a group are not uninvolved.

To a large extent men make the rules and men enforce the rules

 

[d4m10n]

Yeah, I really don't get why people find 'cisgender' offensive. There are men and women, and for each gender there are subsets: cis and trans. We are just different kinds.

What is the sine qua non of womanhood which every trans woman and every cis woman have in common, though?

Consider the diagram below. Sometimes cis women and trans women have aspects of their bodies or minds in common (e.g. prefrontal lobes) sometimes they do not (e.g. ova). But there has to be something they all have in common which men lack, such that we could draw a larger circle around the entire thing. Without getting recursive, what could that be?

 

[Earthborn]

If I called myself a cat,

I already think of you as a cat.

would we suddenly have to find another word for cats to make it clear we weren't including crazy cat-ladies?

Yes. That's kind of how language works; if the words we use no longer clearly communicate the things we want to communicate, and we don't constantly want to use lots of words, we invent more specific words. It is how we get a lot of jargon terms that in everyday use often the mean the same thing, but in specific fields mean very specific and different things. Nobody demands that you call yourself "ciswoman" in everyday use, but that doesn't mean ciswomen who deal with the transgender community a lot find no use for the term.

 

[Rolfe]

They can keep their insulting terminology out of common discourse then. Many people find it useful to refer to males as "he", but somehow that's not allowed because it might offend someone. But in other contexts it's allowed to use words that offend people? How does that work?

 

[Rolfe]

What is the sine qua non of womanhood which every trans woman and every cis woman have in common, though?

Consider the diagram below. Sometime cis women and trans women have aspects of their bodies or minds in common (e.g. prefrontal lobes) sometimes they do not (e.g. ova). But there has to be something they all have in common which men lack, such that we could draw a larger circle around the entire thing. Without getting recursive, what could that be?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200905/fe96f16fa00dadb01230bdd05a7175f5.jpg

That'a a completely pointless and useless diagram, not to mention contrived. What do women have in common with transwomen that they don't have in common with the human race as a whole? Nothing that doesn't depend on regressive gender stereotypes. There doesn't have to be anything women and transwomen have in common that men lack, and I don't really see that there is. Unless, as I said, you get into regressive gender stereotypes.

 

[MisAndreG]

That'a a completely pointless and useless diagram, not to mention contrived. What do women have in common with transwomen that they don't have in common with the human race as a whole? Nothing that doesn't depend on regressive gender stereotypes. There doesn't have to be anything women and transwomen have in common that men lack, and I don't really see that there is. Unless, as I said, you get into regressive gender stereotypes.

Rolfe, what are your thoughts on transing children?

 

[MisAndreG]

I already think of you as a cat.

Yes. That's kind of how language works; if the words we use no longer clearly communicate the things we want to communicate, and we don't constantly want to use lots of words, we invent more specific words. It is how we get a lot of jargon terms that in everyday use often the mean the same thing, but in specific fields mean very specific and different things. Nobody demands that you call yourself "ciswoman" in everyday use, but that doesn't mean ciswomen who deal with the transgender community a lot find no use for the term.

It has a use as an in-group signal, I guess. But is it necessary? No. Not really.

 

[Rolfe]

Rolfe, what are your thoughts on transing children?

Child abuse.

 

[Elaedith]

Talking to people who transitioned MtF over 20 years ago, part of the transition was rigorous psychological therapy which grounded the patient in the reality that they were not female and even surgery wouldn't make them female. They were trained in how to behave around women, how not to make women uncomfortable, and to retreat immediately if it appeared that a woman was indeed uncomfortable in their presence. And they were absolutely forbidden from attempting to enter any female-only spaces until they were post-surgery.

They say this treatment is what has allowed them to live happily and productively for decades. They know who they are and they know who they are not, they know the limits of what is permissible, and both sides respect that. Now we have great hairy-arsed bearded blokes with a cock and balls insisting that they're really, biologically female and women need to suck it up because they're going to do what they like.

This is not sustainable. Men need to take responsibility for their trans-identifying brothers and create the space they need. And people with delusional disorders need appropriate psychotherapy enabling them to come to terms with their condition. Telling somone he really is Napoleon and putting him in charge of the French army is not gong to end well.

It’s my impression that trans people who don't deny biological reality are usually happier and more emotionally resilient than those who insist they are literally the sex they identify as. This might be due to more emotionally stable people being less likely to fall for crackpot ideology in the first place. I suspect it is largely due, however, to the fact that believing one's existence and identity depends on constant validation from others is inherently pathological. It often involves using emotional manipulation (such as threats of suicide, and framing words as literal violence) and maintaining a constant state of hypersensitivity to wield as a weapon. Of course, that is exactly what trans activists want. They need to frame criticism of gender ideology as ‘invalidating the identity of trans people’ to promote silencing, harassment and even violence against critics. The last thing they want is emotionally resilient, well-grounded trans people who don’t need validation from anyone else.

Of course there are well-meaning activists who have been sucked up in all this, but I think there are bad actors (both trans and not trans) with rather nasty Cluster B personality disorders lurking behind this as well.

 

[Elaedith]

I just saw this blog post on the ideological capture of the journal Nature.