Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[cullennz]

Yeah, I really don't get why people find 'cisgender' offensive. There are men and women, and for each gender there are subsets: cis and trans. We are just different kinds.



It would be like a person who finds it offensive to be called 'heterosexual'. True, there would be no need for a label like that if homosexuals didn't exist, but they do so it does.



And I absolutely find it offensive when anybody calls us men or claims we aren't women, but nobody cares about that.

I don't find it "offensive" at all. It is just pointless given they are just women.

And will never use it.

I'd actually switch the question to why you insist it is needed when they are just women and not trans women.

 

[Boudicca90]

I don't find it "offensive" at all. It is just pointless given they are just women.

And will never use it.

I'd actually switch the question to why you insist it is needed when they are just women and not trans women.

It's just a classification.

If I were to speak about women in general, both cis and trans, I would just use women. But when distinguishing between us, it is helpful. The problem is that you still see us as men, so when you make the distinction between women and trans women, you are really saying real women vs. fake women.

 

[cullennz]

This is where we disagree.

I will happily say she when referring to a trans women.

I say she when referring to a women.

If referring to their gender it is women and trans women.

I don't really personal see trans women as fake women by the way.

Just trans women. And not women when talking gender.

 

[cullennz]

Probably should have just said the cis is pointless.

Basically by your argument it might as well be replaced by "real" any way which I find odd logic

Edit:

I just find the whole thing odd.

We want to just be women!

We also want Transgender listed on all these forms!

 

[Boudicca90]

It is very telling what I hear from some transwomen. They are things I would never hear from my female friends. They are very male thoughts about how to be treated. You dont internalize the feelings of the women.
You betray your gender by the very fact that you cannot consider what it is really like to be female.

There is really nothing more to say. Good luck to you. I will always be polite and (believe it or not) I do have a couple trans friends- and one in my kids school.
But if a woman with a penis shows up flaunting it in my 12yo kids locker room I will raise hell. HELL. The fury of a mother knows no bounds if you violate expected modesty. And if you were female, you would know this to be true.
(and I am sure you would know better than those criminal exhibitionists)

eta: disclaimer:all you naked Europeans have your own thing...I am talking suburban America.

I do think maybe I have had trouble really understanding, you are right.

Even though I didn't see myself as a man for most of my life, the fact is I did present as a man (or at least attempted to), and therefore was treated as one. I never had to deal with the inherent danger of being a woman until the past few years. And even after having a number of instances of men thinking they can do whatever they want with me without my consent, my friend still has to remind me before I put myself in certain situations to be careful because I am a woman now and I will be treated differently because of that.

And maybe because I was never really sexually attracted to women before meant I could never see women as sexual objects and see the potential danger from that perspective like some of my lesbian trans friends.

If I'm coming off as too defensive and insensitive, I apologize. Trump and the Republicans have increased hatred of us so much over the past few years that I can be a little sensitive and reactionary to certain things. I'm seriously just tired and afraid.

 

[cullennz]

I do think maybe I have had trouble really understanding, you are right.

Even though I didn't see myself as a man for most of my life, the fact is I did present as a man (or at least attempted to), and therefore was treated as one. I never had to deal with the inherent danger of being a woman until the past few years. And even after having a number of instances of men thinking they can do whatever they want with me without my consent, my friend still has to remind me before I put myself in certain situations to be careful because I am a woman now and I will be treated differently because of that.

And maybe because I was never really sexually attracted to women before meant I could never see women as sexual objects and see the potential danger from that perspective like some of my lesbian trans friends.

If I'm coming off as too defensive and insensitive, I apologize. Trump and the Republicans have increased hatred of us so much over the past few years that I can be a little sensitive and reactionary to certain things. I'm seriously just tired and afraid.

Apart from the obvious why don't you just stop hanging out with prick blokes. Maybe you should realise most dudes don't think of the other sex as sexual objects.

It's probably a bit 50/50 on the percentage of both sexes that do btw

 

[Boudicca90]

Apart from the obvious why don't you just stop hanging out with prick blokes. Maybe you should realise most dudes don't think of the other sex as sexual objects.

It's probably a bit 50/50 on the percentage of both sexes that do btw

Lol, you've never been in the military then.

I used to think that way before I served and realized just how disgusting men can be. And had to hold my tongue at every sexist thing I heard because I didn't want to be ostracized (or had even more suspicion about my sexual orientation.)

 

[cullennz]

Because all men are sexual predators and all women's farts smell of roses, while being fragile and living in purity

 

[Boudicca90]

Because all men are sexual predators and all women's farts smell of roses, while being fragile and living in purity

No, but men are much more honest with each other about their real thoughts and feelings in certain situations. Or like Trump and his supporters like to put it: Locker room talk.

And since I didn't share their feelings towards women, it made it very awkward for me. I just stayed quiet, and I regret that.

 

[Rolfe]

I guess I should call my son an abomination, then, according to your lights. He was born female.

However did you make that leap of illogic? Nobody is an abomination. And certainly not as a result of being trans. Nobody can change sex, but that doesn't make someone who wishes they could do that a bad person.

I suspect Rolfe would probably call your son a trans man. Is that offensive?

Indeed. There's nothing abominable or offensive about being a transman.

 

[cullennz]

No, but men are much more honest with each other about their real thoughts and feelings in certain situations. Or like Trump and his supporters like to put it: Locker room talk.

And since I didn't share their feelings towards women, it made it very awkward for me. I just stayed quiet, and I regret that.

With all due respect. Twice I have been working in departments where I was the only dude and gone to various work drinks.

Believe me. She is hardly a one sided thing, when on occasion they forgot I was there.

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah, I really don't get why people find 'cisgender' offensive.

There seems to be no need for the general public to understand why you find some things offensive. We're just told you do, and that you mustn't be offended, and we're bigots and haters if we don't fall in with the compelled speech.

Goose and gander sauce here. You're good at asserting things and insisting that the world must fall in with your assertions. You're not the only person who can do that.

"Cis" is offensive because it implies that we are only a subset of our own category. That the category "woman" can include some people who are male. No it can't and no it doesn't. There are women, who are female, and there are transwomen, who are male. They are welcome to present in public in any way they please, but they are not women other than in the social courtesy sense.

 

[Rolfe]

So it really is all down to having a penis? I guess to me I just don't view the mere existence of a penis around me as a threat, and perhaps you are right in that it could be because I've never been taught to view them as such, even though I am careful not to show mine around other women in locker rooms or spas out of respect for them (and I just don't like being naked around other people period, regardless of their gender.)

It's all down to having a functional SRY gene and functional androgen receptors, and having gone through male puberty. It is extraordinarily rare to find someone with these attributes who is not "clocked" pretty quickly as male by most women. Males have absolutely no place in women's locker rooms or spa changing rooms after the age of about seven.

 

[Rolfe]

The problem is that you still see us as men, so when you make the distinction between women and trans women, you are really saying real women vs. fake women.

Indeed. I'm sorry you can't cope with reality. I think this is something you need to work on.

 

[LondonJohn]

Lol, you've never been in the military then.

I used to think that way before I served and realized just how disgusting men can be. And had to hold my tongue at every sexist thing I heard because I didn't want to be ostracized (or had even more suspicion about my sexual orientation.)

I'm genuinely not trying to "out" your real identity, but...... you're not Chelsea Manning, are you?!


(That's a question which definitely doesn't require an answer, btw!)

 

[Rolfe]

If I'm coming off as too defensive and insensitive, I apologize

I find you aggressive and entitled. Oh yes, and insensitive too of course. You think that because you want something, you should have it, even if it's impossible. Most people want quite a lot of things they can't have because of the nature of reality. The nature of reality is that your body is male. How you deal with that is your business, but you cannot simply demand to be female and expect that to happen. It's no more going to happen than if you demand to be five feet tall, or Chinese.

 

[LondonJohn]

Indeed. I'm sorry you can't cope with reality. I think this is something you need to work on.

But there's still no getting away from the fact that in most liberal democracies, males who have transitioned are - in a very real and legal sense - females.

Which is why I suggest that the best (or least-bad, depending on your perspective) solution may be to have this big set of "women", wholly within which exists a subset of "trans women". And those born as women and remaining as women would only ever need to be referred to as "cis women" if it was for the purpose of comparing or distinguishing.

As I keep saying, these are difficult and delicate social (and legal) negotiations. I doubt there will ever (or can ever) be a solution which satisfies everyone. But it's everyone's responsibility, over probably the next decade or so, to work towards achieving an optimum settlement which is as respectful as possible to all parties.

 

[Rolfe]

You need to look up "legal fiction".

Now we have males who have transitioned, and their allies, demanding that this legal fiction should be taken to define reality, and such has been the agenda capture by the trans lobby that they are getting their way in many areas. That is what this thread is about. The demand that transwomen, who have been allowed the legal fiction of designating themselves as women when they are not and never can be women, should be included in the category of women for all possible purposes.

It does no good simply to assert this position again.

 

[cullennz]

Still find it odd this whole argument seems to be almost confined to the women side of things.

 

[Tanja]

Delurking (I’ve been following this thread for a long time) to add my thoughts, for what it’s worth.

I support the rights of individuals to transition; I’ve never to my knowledge met a trans person, but if I knew one, I’d happily call them by their preferred name and pronoun (as long as the pronoun is he/she/they - I gather there are other pronouns and I’d probably struggle with any that are not a standard part of the English language).

I am a keen follower of sport and of women’s sport in particular and I really struggle with the idea of trans women being allowed to compete in women’s categories in sport. Particularly if it wasn’t super carefully regulated. A lot of posters in this thread who were in favour of trans women competing in women’s sport were open about not caring about women’s sport and the implication on women, which is hurtful to me as a woman and as a woman that enjoys women’s sport.

In the locker room debate, I really struggle with the idea of allowing people with male genitalia into women’s spaces. Most of not all posters here who were fine with the idea of a person with a penis in a female changing room were male. That’s telling. I had also until recently thought that as a general rule trans women are post op, and I am learning that that’s not the case, and that many (most? Don’t know) are pre-op or not intending to operate. I struggle with the idea of any trans woman with intact male genitalia, particularly those who use it for penetrative sex, being considered as a woman for absolutely all intents and purposes. They may feel female, I’ll call them by their female name, but clearly they are still male in at least one really important sense - they have a penis they can use to penetrate a sexual partner. If that’s not a male thing to do, what is?

Same for trans men - there were a couple of stories in the media about trans men pregnant and giving birth to a baby - they may think of themselves as men, they may legally have become men, but clearly they are in at least one really important sense biologically female.

It looks to me that the trans debate over the last few years is really skewing towards “gender trumps sex”, that this wasn’t the case even ten years ago, and where I was initially really supportive of the trans movement (of the right of any individual to present as the other sex and transition, of the right of any individual not to be discriminated at work for transitioning etc) I am becoming more and more reluctant and critical, as I can see women losing out in areas such as women-only spaces and sport.

Are my thoughts on the subject in any way “radical”? Am I a “TERF”?