Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Emily's Cat]

It’s still ridiculous. Why should anyone be required to identify themselves as someone they are not?

We shouldn't. And in normal conversation, I most assuredly do not. But I will tolerate it in conversations that are specifically about transgender issues, as a pragmatic means of distinction, provided it is used in that manner, and not used as an insinuated insult.

 

[Sherkeu]

Is there a similarly efficient way to denote women who were born female?

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I don't know how 'efficient' it is, but in some articles it is denoted with 'natal female' (or natal male).

The trans activists call it AMAB or AFAB meaning Assigned m/f At Birth

 

[d4m10n]

I don't know how 'efficient' it is, but in some articles it is denoted with 'natal female' (or natal male).



The trans activists call it AMAB or AFAB meaning Assigned m/f At Birth

No, that doesn't cut it. Trans men are AFAB.

 

[Roboramma]

I don't think it's a matter of who is more offended. We still haven't had a single coherent definition of "woman" than includes trans women.

As the word has always been defined, trans women aren't women. Being offended by facts doesn't make them false. If the suggestion is that we should redefine the word, then a coherent definition should be offered for consideration.

So far none has.

 

[abaddon]

Yes. Women. All women are born female.

I guess I should call my son an abomination, then, according to your lights. He was born female.

 

[theprestige]

I guess I should call my son an abomination, then, according to your lights. He was born female.

This is the crux of the matter. What should you call your son?

He was born female.

Why do you call him male?

Much more importantly, why do I call him male? If you can answer this, you will reveal many mysteries.

 

[Ziggurat]

I guess I should call my son an abomination, then, according to your lights. He was born female.

I suspect Rolfe would probably call your son a trans man. Is that offensive?

 

[cullennz]

I guess I should call my son an abomination, then, according to your lights. He was born female.

Call him your son.

This doesn't change the fact he was born female.

 

[Sherkeu]

I guess I should call my son an abomination, then, according to your lights. He was born female.

If your son is an anatomical female and I was processing him into jail or prison (lets say it's some unfair charge, ok?) I'd put 'female' on the intake forms and not put him with the males.

Would you think me kind?... or be offended?

Should he always be treated just like any other man? or perhaps there are exceptions?

 

[Boudicca90]

If your son is an anatomical female and I was processing him into jail or prison (lets say it's some unfair charge, ok?) I'd put 'female' on the intake forms and not put him with the males.

Would you think me kind?... or be offended?

Should he always be treated just like any other man? or perhaps there are exceptions?

Yes, as a man, he belongs with other men. If there were issues with that logistically that's another issue, but it would be discrimination to list his gender as "female" and put him in the women's prison.

 

[Boudicca90]

In my experience those women are vastly outnumbered by people who are offended and hurt by statements like "Transwomen are not women. Transwomen are a subset of men."

That said, I'm not interested in conceding the semantic argument to whichever side seems more currently numerous or more deeply offended. We need a working vocabulary which hinges on other considerations than these.

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Yeah, I really don't get why people find 'cisgender' offensive. There are men and women, and for each gender there are subsets: cis and trans. We are just different kinds.

It would be like a person who finds it offensive to be called 'heterosexual'. True, there would be no need for a label like that if homosexuals didn't exist, but they do so it does.

And I absolutely find it offensive when anybody calls us men or claims we aren't women, but nobody cares about that.

 

[Sherkeu]

Yes, as a man, he belongs with other men. If there were issues with that logistically that's another issue, but it would be discrimination to list his gender as "female" and put him in the women's prison.

I appreciate your responding but I am not really interested in a 'male born trans' opinion on female born transpersons. I assume you were not born with a vagina and might not understand the implications of having such a body part inside of a male prison.
You will likely never understand it but I'm sure you can empathize as best you can.

 

[Sherkeu]

And I absolutely find it offensive when anybody calls us men or claims we aren't women, but nobody cares about that.

You are a Woman in polite society. You are a trans-woman for some scenarios (like competitive sports), and you are male for other things, like science, medicine and clinical trials. These things are not disputed, even by advocates.

So you are a woman, but in a 'special' way that does not apply to naturally born females.

 

[Boudicca90]

I appreciate your responding but I am not really interested in a 'male born' opinion. I assume you were not born with a vagina and might not understand the implications of having such a body part inside of a male prison.
You will likely never understand it but I'm sure you can empathize as best you can.

Well the good thing about public forums is you can't prevent me from giving my 'male born' opinion.

I understand the risks of having someone with a vagina around people with penises, and that's why it might be necessary to provide some extra protection and accommodation, but he is still a man. Genitals are irrelevant to gender, but this is a case where genitals can be a safety issue.

I don't know how far abbadon's son has transitioned, but you can't think that a bunch of women would want someone who is indistinguishable from a cis man just with a vagina instead of a penis in with them either.

 

[Boudicca90]

You are a Woman in polite society. You are a trans-woman for some scenarios (like competitive sports), and you are male for other things, like science, medicine and clinical trials. These things are not disputed, even by advocates.

So you are a woman, but in a 'special' way that does not apply to naturally born females.

Not even separate but equal, just whatever little scraps you throw to us. And these are definitely disputed by advocates, but that depends on what you define as "advocates". A number of people who claim they are allies in this thread have shown themselves to not be.

 

[The Atheist]

True. But then - by very dint of the "cis" and "trans" prefixes - there are two separate categories of women already in any case.

Nope.

There are women, with no "cis" required.

There are also trans women - people who were born male, but feel they are female. As I said in the thread title. they're not women. They can call themselves women, wear women's clothing and present as women, and have all of women's rights, barring access to women-only areas, but they're no more women than I am a kangaroo.

Using "cis" is a cop out and I absolutely refuse to use it or accept it.

 

[Sherkeu]

Not even separate but equal, just whatever little scraps you throw to us. And these are definitely disputed by advocates, but that depends on what you define as "advocates". A number of people who claim they are allies in this thread have shown themselves to not be.

It is very telling what I hear from some transwomen. They are things I would never hear from my female friends. They are very male thoughts about how to be treated. You dont internalize the feelings of the women.
You betray your gender by the very fact that you cannot consider what it is really like to be female.

There is really nothing more to say. Good luck to you. I will always be polite and (believe it or not) I do have a couple trans friends- and one in my kids school.
But if a woman with a penis shows up flaunting it in my 12yo kids locker room I will raise hell. HELL. The fury of a mother knows no bounds if you violate expected modesty. And if you were female, you would know this to be true.
(and I am sure you would know better than those criminal exhibitionists)

eta: disclaimer:all you naked Europeans have your own thing...I am talking suburban America.

 

[Ziggurat]

I understand the risks of having someone with a vagina around people with penises, and that's why it might be necessary to provide some extra protection and accommodation, but he is still a man.

Depending on the definition of "man", that might be true (although most attempts I've seen at such a definition become uselessly circular). But he is not male. He is female. That is a statement about biological sex, not gender.

 

[Sherkeu]

I don't know how far abbadon's son has transitioned, but you can't think that a bunch of women would want someone who is indistinguishable from a cis man just with a vagina instead of a penis in with them either.

As long as the women know he has no penis...it is A-OK.
Woman WITH penis = nervous trust til something happens.

Any other women want the chime in on how scared you would be at sharing prison space with a man that has a vagina? vs a woman with a penis?

I know the result (as a generalization at least- some women can be crazy dangerous) but the obvious answers arent always knows to men.

 

[Boudicca90]

As long as the women know he has no penis...it is A-OK.
Woman WITH penis = nervous trust til something happens.

Any other women want the chime in on how scared you would be at sharing prison space with a man that has a vagina? vs a woman with a penis?

I know the result (as a generalization at least- some women can be crazy dangerous) but the obvious answers arent always knows to men.

So it really is all down to having a penis? I guess to me I just don't view the mere existence of a penis around me as a threat, and perhaps you are right in that it could be because I've never been taught to view them as such, even though I am careful not to show mine around other women in locker rooms or spas out of respect for them (and I just don't like being naked around other people period, regardless of their gender.)