I think you missed Ziggurat's point, so let me just quote this again:
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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3
- Thread starter Squeegee Beckenheim
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I think you missed Ziggurat's point, so let me just quote this again:
Yes that’s it, it’s not that you’re a man who wants to force others to believe he’s a women, it’s because your threaten our masculinity and sexuality. Grow up.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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You too have missed the point. You say you never supported her, and I believe you. You say that she's unreasonable, and I agree. You say that she's a **** who happens to be trans, not a **** because she's trans, and I don't dispute that.
But none of that is why I brought up Yaniv. I didn't bring up Yaniv to smear trans people. I brought up Yaniv to illustrate that the standard that you previously described isn't workable. You don't even actually believe in it yourself.
Let's not mince words. The attitude of most people is:
"I don't really consider transwomen/transmen to be women/men, but I'm willing to humour them until it affects me in a way that I find disagreeable."
Is that enough for transgender people? Is it bigotry? Is it realistic to expect anything more?
"I don't really consider transwomen/transmen to be women/men, but I'm willing to humour them until it affects me in a way that I find disagreeable."
Is that enough for transgender people? Is it bigotry? Is it realistic to expect anything more?
My attitude is, was, and always will be what functional difference that isn't purely semantics (and yes I put pronouns in the "purely semantic" category) this even means.
If I don't treat men and women differently I can't treat a "Woman who identifies as a man" differently and I keep getting told I have to with equal passion that I'm NOT being told what the difference is.
I don't care where you pee, I don't care what you wear, I don't care in what combination you and any other consenting adult(s) rub their genitals together.
But I already don't care about that outside of gender roles. So I've got nowhere to go.
So I keep doing the right thing for the wrong reason. I don't care that there's a vagina in the bathroom stall next the bathroom stall I'm sitting in. But I'm supposed to care differently whether that vagina is attached to someone who identifies as a man or identifies as a woman as and I... just... can't.
Outside of periodic detours into "We have to protect the womenfolk from men" territory I'm as lost as to what I'm supposed to actually functionally do now as ever.
If I don't treat men and women differently I can't treat a "Woman who identifies as a man" differently and I keep getting told I have to with equal passion that I'm NOT being told what the difference is.
I don't care where you pee, I don't care what you wear, I don't care in what combination you and any other consenting adult(s) rub their genitals together.
But I already don't care about that outside of gender roles. So I've got nowhere to go.
So I keep doing the right thing for the wrong reason. I don't care that there's a vagina in the bathroom stall next the bathroom stall I'm sitting in. But I'm supposed to care differently whether that vagina is attached to someone who identifies as a man or identifies as a woman as and I... just... can't.
Outside of periodic detours into "We have to protect the womenfolk from men" territory I'm as lost as to what I'm supposed to actually functionally do now as ever.
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For this to mean anything, we'd have to pretend "being trans" is homogeneous. It's not. There's a huge difference, for example, between a middle-aged man getting sexually aroused by the thought of having breasts and a teenage girl wanting to cut hers off to escape being the horrors of being female. The two have virtually nothing in common.
A lot of harm is being done to young people by not looking at the psychological, social and other factors behind making people think they're trans.
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
As a cisgender male, I cannot think of any way transactivism could impact me negatively. I don't actually mind seeing trans men in locker rooms, showers, men's private golf clubs, etc. Probably the worst that could happen is that I'd be publicly accused of wrongthink for engaging in discussions like this one.
Unless you happen to run a single-sex facility or club or at least one with sex-segregated spaces, you're not going to have to differentiate between males and females. There are only a handful of actual gatekeepers out there e.g. World Rugby.
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Trans people are very diverse and believe different things about this, so I don’t think we can speculate about their thoughts in those generalized ways. but the tra types can be generalized about because they hold fairly uniform views - to them it’s not enough. Yes they consider it bigotry, and they do expect more, but what they expect has nothing to do with reality or what’s realistic.
They want to compel people to behave and think in a way that accords with trans or nb self image.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Sounds about right. One small dissent: Even when it affects me in a way I find disagreeable, I'm still willing to seek some basis for agreement.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Other than using preferred names and pronouns?
Call men women, or lose your job.
That's because trans activism is a men's movement promoting male interests.
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Any examples of this cancel culture IRL?
I think we need to be clear here about the distinction between 'trans people' and transgender activists (the fundamentalists, who are the only ones who generally get heard), not all of whom are transgender.
Activists are pushing an ideology that the concept of biological sex is either socially constructed or meaningless, and should be replaced with the concept of self-declared gender identity. Ultimately this would lead to the abolition of biological sex as a protected characteristic, since it is redundant, and hence the elimination of sex-based legal protections. This is what critics of gender identity ideology are opposing.
Transgender people are just an excuse for those pushing this ideology. By re-framing criticism of gender identity ideology as attacks on transgender people themselves, it is possible to cow most critics into silence and push this ideology without having any argument, logic, evidence or being willing to engage in debate. Not all transgender people agree with gender identity ideology, and they are not exempted from bullying and silencing tactics employed by the trans cult.
Yeah, that’s pretty damn big - say these words or else is a big deal. Also making women accept men in women’s spaces because those men say they’re women, or like sending the cops to peoples homes because they said wrong speak agains tra bull in the uk - think about that — or like forcing parents who don’t want their kids to be mutilated to be mutilated
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Depends on the "or else" part, I suppose, but pronouns are already something we're expected to get right.
Imagine a scenario in which the alpha male office ******* constantly belittles one of his less masculine male co-workers by referring to him using feminine pronouns and titles, e.g. "Ms." Would it be at all unreasonable for the offending employee to be warned off for harassment and/or hostile work environment?
Well, personally, I would probably stop considering a person a potential sexual partner the moment I found out she was a transwoman, and I would probably be somewhat upset upon finding out that I unknowingly had intercourse with a transwoman. That's what I got.
Thats bullying - creating an actual hostile environment - on top of being incorrect. People not playing pretend with grown ass adults by using incongruent pronouns while not bullying them should be cool.
I just noticed that James Cantor is the latest casualty. His sins include not giving unconditional support to the gender affirmation model, proposing children should not transition before age 12 and taking issue with the way 'TERF' is used.
This is the offending post and thread which followed. I found it quite fascinating, especially the person who had a great sense of violence from being exposed to the coversation.
This is the offending post and thread which followed. I found it quite fascinating, especially the person who had a great sense of violence from being exposed to the coversation.
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