Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

[jimbob]

I think he was all about face masks being worse than nothing, because people who wear face masks have a false sense of security, and behave irresponsibly.

The Danish counterparts had the same position in March.

The converse is equally likely. You see everyone wearing face masks and are reminded that it is not normal.

 

[Rolfe]

Exactly.

 

[dann]

Tegnell is asked if he regrets the former policy of not wearing face masks:

Efter vändning om munskydd – Tegnell ångrar inte beslutet (Expressen.se, Sep. 1, 2020)

After turnaround about face masks – Tegnell doesn’t regret the decision
- He claims that studies in other countries show that face masks only work for a very short period of time. I guess he doesn’t know about Japan, or he maybe he's just making it up.

Svenskarna är skeptiska till att använda munskydd, skriver Öppnar för användning av munskydd – men svenskarna skeptiska]Dagens Nyheter.
Enligt deras DN/Ipsos-undersökning vill tre av tio att det införs masktvång i offentliga miljöer. Ungefär lika många saknar bestämd uppfattning och fyra av tio är mot munskyddstvång.
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (Aftonbladet.se, Sep. 1, 2020 – 19:44)

The Swedes are skeptical about using face masks, writes Dagens Nyheter.
According to their DN/Ipsos poll, three of ten want face masks to be made mandatory in public places. Approximately the same number don’t have any opinion, and four of ten are against face masks.
Latest news about the coronavirus

Grönland, Sudan och Sverige är några av få länder som inte har allmänna rekommendationer om munskydd.
Folkhälsomyndigheten öppnar nu för användning i vissa situationer – om pandemin förvärras.
Men stödet bland svenskarna för att bära munskydd är svagt, visar en undersökning från DN/Ipsos.
Öppnar för användning av munskydd – men svenskarna skeptiska (DagensNyheter.se, Sep. 1, 2020)

Greenland, Sudan and Sweden are some of the countries that don’t have general recommendations about face masks.
The Public Health Agency (FHM) now opens up for using them in certain situations – if the pandemic gets worse.
But the support among Swedes for wearing face masks is weak, a study from Dagens Nyheter/Ipsos shows.
Opens up for using face masks – but the Swedes are skeptical
Why do they think the Swedes are skeptical? FHM’s six-months-long propaganda against face masks may have something to do with it …

Sveriges kamp mot covid-19 ser just nu framgångsrik ut – 19 andra europeiska länder har högre smittotal per capita.
Något som gläder Folkhälsomyndighetens generaldirektör Johan Carlson och får professor Agnes Wold att utbrista:
– Vi kan sluta piska oss.
(…)
Det positiva:
– Sveriges riktlinjer har varit bra. Smittspridningstakten sjunker och 19 europeiska länder har nu högre smittotal per capita, säger Carson.
Det mer restriktiva:
– Den svenska strategin måste dock hållas i. Det vill säga hålla avstånd, tvätta händerna och vara hemma om man har symptom.
Smittan sprids i Europa: ”Vi kan sluta piska oss” (Expressen.se, Sep. 2, 2020)

Sweden’s struggle against Covid-19 looks successful right now – 19 other European countries have higher per-capita rates of infection.
This is something that pleases FHM’s general director Johan Carlson and makes professor Agnes Wold burst out:
-We should stop whipping ourselves.
(…)
On the positive side:
-Sweden’s guidelines have been good. The rate of infection is sinking and 19 European countries now have higher per-capita levels of infection, says Carlson.
More restrictive:
-The Swedish strategy should nevertheless be maintained, i.e. social distancing, washing hands and staying at home if you have symptoms.
Growing levels of infection in Europe: "We should stop whipping ourselves"

 

[dann]

Wednesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 2, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 576 (5,820) ???* 15 *No number of new infections at SVT.se, but 7 new deaths.
Denmark: 108 (626) 111 2
Finland: 61 (336) 19 1
Norway: 49 (264) 80 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 5 0
Iceland has 95 active cases, Faroe Islands 37, New Zealand 129.

The Faroe Islands have 41 in quarantine, 2 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed. For some reason, the Faroese numbers were not updated yesterday.
Faroese hotels were doing fine in July, but the article doesn’t say how they were doing in August, but I suppose some of the capacity was used for quarantines: https://kvf.fo/greinar/2020/09/02/hotels-bounce-back-covid-slumpHotels bounce back from Covid slump (KVF.fo, Sep. 2, 2020

 

[dann]

Exactly.

What about Scotland? See post 1975 and Scotland announces local lockdowns and quarantine for arrivals from Greece – Household gatherings banned in three Greater Glasgow areas (Guardian, Sep. 1, 2020)

 

[dann]

Wasn't he all about "face masks on their own don't stop the virus so they're not worth wearing" before? The idea that something which isn't 100% effective alone might nevertheless be a useful addition to other measures is a new concept for him, I imagine.

Yes, that and the claim that wearing masks would make people give up social distancing.

 

[dann]

I think he was all about face masks being worse than nothing, because people who wear face masks have a false sense of security, and behave irresponsibly.

It must be a Swedish thing - even though I have a hard time imagining Swedes going all crazy because they're wearing masks.
Alcohol sometimes has that effect, but Sweden didn't lock down bars or Systembolaget (Wiki).

The Danish counterparts had the same position in March.

And so did Fauci in the USA, but the main reason back then was that they didn't want people to start hoarding face masks when they were needed at hospitals and in care homes. When the supply for those places was in place, I didn't see them argue against the general use of face masks.

What is your impression of the mandatory use of face masks in Denmark? I haven't used public transport yet, but I see people wearing face masks at bus stops, and more people are using them when they go shopping. 16 people fined after the first nine days:
Politiet har uddelt 16 bøder til passagerer uden mundbind (BT, Aug. 31, 2020)

And I have heard no reports of people behaving irresponsibly because of the masks. Bank robberies don't seem to have increased because people think, 'Well, I'm already wearing a mask so I might as well ...'

 

[steenkh]

What is your impression of the mandatory use of face masks in Denmark? I haven't used public transport yet, but I see people wearing face masks at bus stops, and more people are using them when they go shopping.

I have used public transport every day this week, after returning home from Austria. People are wearing masks without exception. A few people do not cover their noses, and a few people have the masks but keep them under their chin. these are the types that want to signal that they are macho, and you can just buzz off ...

People are only wearing masks in some shops. It seems that supermarkets are the place to go with masks. I see little to no social distancing, even where there are marks on the floor marking the preferred distance, and people get aggressive if I point it out.

This is in contrast with Germany (where I passed through) and Austria (where I stayed with family for two weeks). In Germany, a lot of people are also wearing masks on the streets, and in general I found that Covid-19 is taken rather seriously (except for those 40000 covidiots demonstrating in Berlin). I was impressed that in restaurants you are required to give the contact details of one person at the table so that contact tracing can be done if somebody gets ill. Like in Denmark, I saw no social distancing.

In Austria, the situation is much like in Denmark except perhaps somewhat worse, because masks have been compulsory in shops and public transport for much longer, and more people demonstratively do not cover their noses, or wear the masks under their chins. There is also no social distancing, and we were regarded as morons, when we did not let in a family of four into our lift. Hardly anyone use masks on the streets, and most that we know cared only about where masks were compulsory, and not where masks could prevent Covid-19.

In Austria and Denmark, it seems like a mark of trust and friendship that you shake hands, and embrace. Apparently, it is socially denigrating to have Covid-19, so you have to demonstratively show that you trust that your friends and family do not have it. At the bus stops where I wait in Denmark, I see lots of young people shaking hands and embracing like last year. If they are going to sit together in a crowded class room, then maybe it makes sense.

 

[Rolfe]

What about Scotland? See post 1975 and Scotland announces local lockdowns and quarantine for arrivals from Greece – Household gatherings banned in three Greater Glasgow areas (Guardian, Sep. 1, 2020)

Scotland has mandated face masks in many situations and people are generally complying.

The virus is spreading again as the lockdown is relaxed and I don't think the countermeasures have been nearly rigorous enough so far. They get on top of one cluster - Aberdeen is sorted and I think the Coupar Angus one is too - but then it kicks off somewhere else.

I see they're contact tracing in my old school this morning. The virus is being transmitted there and in one other school in Glasgow - that they're telling us about, that is.

 

[Rolfe]

In Austria and Denmark, it seems like a mark of trust and friendship that you shake hands, and embrace. Apparently, it is socially denigrating to have Covid-19, so you have to demonstratively show that you trust that your friends and family do not have it. At the bus stops where I wait in Denmark, I see lots of young people shaking hands and embracing like last year. If they are going to sit together in a crowded class room, then maybe it makes sense.

I'm not seeing that here among older people. It's normal to stand apart from a friend you're talking to, and to sit in a chair distant from them when in their house. As I took farewell of a cousin I'd been visiting, she said "virtual hugs!" and we mimed hugging but without going closer than about a metre and a half.

But then I hear the young people are in general not being so responsible.

 

[dann]

Scotland has mandated face masks in many situations and people are generally complying.

The virus is spreading again as the lockdown is relaxed and I don't think the countermeasures have been nearly rigorous enough so far. They get on top of one cluster - Aberdeen is sorted and I think the Coupar Angus one is too - but then it kicks off somewhere else.

I see they're contact tracing in my old school this morning. The virus is being transmitted there and in one other school in Glasgow - that they're telling us about, that is.

In Denmark, there are reports every day about students and/or teachers getting infected and schools temporarily locking down down. The rise in new cases seems to be mainly due to the reopening of schools and other institutions of learning.

Mindst 36 studerende på læreruddannelse i Odense er smittet med covid-19.
(…)
I alt 1072 lærerstuderende er blevet hjemsendt, og må ikke vende tilbage til skolen, før de to gange er blevet testet negative for coronavirus.
Smittetal eksploderet på læreruddannelse - rektor beklager krammeøvels (TV2.dk, Sep. 3, 2020)

At least 36 students at a teachers’ education center in Odense have been infected with Covid-19.
(…)
1,072 students have been sent home and cannot return to the school until they have been tested negative twice.
The number of cases increases dramatically at teachers’ education – The headmaster regrets ‘hugging exercise’
This is moronic! See photo!

 

[dann]

People are only wearing masks in some shops. It seems that supermarkets are the place to go with masks. I see little to no social distancing, even where there are marks on the floor marking the preferred distance, and people get aggressive if I point it out.

Face masks aren't mandatory in shops or supermarkets yet, but I think many people get used to wearing them on public transport and don't take them off until they get home.
In Frederiksberg, almost everybody complies with the rules of social distancing in supermarkets. I have only encountered one apparent Covid-denialist in a supermarket so far, and a few groups of teenagers who appeared to have forgotten all about it, which I can understand. I let them carry on and didn't reprimand them.

 

[dann]

Thursday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 3, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 577 (5,832) 197* 14 *according to SVT.se. I don’t know how reliable that number is since the recommendation now is that You shouldn’t get tested unless you have symptoms. ("- Man ska inte testa sig om man inte har symptom.")
Denmark: 108 (626) 179 3
Finland: 61 (336) 39 1
Norway: 49 (264) 31 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 7 0
Iceland has 95 active cases, Faroe Islands 33, New Zealand 115.
The Faroe Islands have 36 in quarantine, 2 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.

The number of Faroese coronavirus tests now corresponds to having tested the entire population – twice! That corresponds to almost 5 times the number of per-capita tests in Denmark. And almost 20 times the number of per-capita tests in Sweden.

 

[Rolfe]

Scotland had 101 new cases reported today. Mainly in Glasgow, which is not such a surprise. We're being told that R is about 1.4 but not to worry because this is starting from a very low number of cases. Personally I think we need to get this down, sooner rather than later.

 

[Samson]

The New Zealand method (population half Sweden), allowed in death 23 today, a man in his 50s which means Pacifica with other problems.
Tragic with young family. Will remind this labour stronghold precinct to support Ardern. I think she is doing ok.

 

[zooterkin]

The New Zealand method (population half Sweden), allowed in death 23 today, a man in his 50s which means Pacifica with other problems.
Tragic with young family. Will remind this labour stronghold precinct to support Ardern. I think she is doing ok.

Any chance of rendering that into English?

 

[steenkh]

A side effect of people wearing masks in public transport in Denmark has been that discarded masks now litter the areas around bus stops and train stations. This is the same area where cigarette stumps are prevalent, so I wonder if most of the litterers are smokers: they already have the attitude that they have they right to litter.

 

[dann]

Any chance of rendering that into English?

Covid 19 coronavirus: Man in his 50s dies in Auckland, first virus death in three months (NZHerald, Sep. 4, 2020)
Coronavirus: Auckland man with Covid-19 dies in Middlemore Hospital, the first death of the new cluster (Stuff.co.nz, Sep. 4, 2020)
New Zealand records first Covid-19 death in over three months (Telegraph, Sep 4, 2020)

 

[Rolfe]

A side effect of people wearing masks in public transport in Denmark has been that discarded masks now litter the areas around bus stops and train stations. This is the same area where cigarette stumps are prevalent, so I wonder if most of the litterers are smokers: they already have the attitude that they have they right to litter.

A week or two ago I went for a walk in the lanes near my home and started to collect litter from the verges as a means of passing the time. I was dumping the stuff in wheelie-bins at farm road-ends, although I did take one empty vodka bottle home to put it in the glass recycling.

Anyway, one of the items I picked up was a discarded face mask. I mean, on a country lane in the middle of nowhere?

 

[dann]

A side effect of people wearing masks in public transport in Denmark has been that discarded masks now litter the areas around bus stops and train stations. This is the same area where cigarette stumps are prevalent, so I wonder if most of the litterers are smokers: they already have the attitude that they have they right to litter.

I have only seen a few, but I haven't been at a train station yet. The ones I've seen weren't in places with a lot of cigarette butts so they could be due to one-ear users and wind.
Anyway, it is an argument for the kind of cloth mask/bandana neck scarf that I am using for motorcycle riding now that it has started getting a little chilly at night.