Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Boudicca90]

Yaniv lost her case. Her absurd campaign was unsuccessful despite Canada codifying trans acceptance into their civil rights law. Very strange to offer this as a slippery slope scenario when we know such a case was unsuccessful.

Nutpicking some unsuccessful crank and offering it as an example of what might happen is pretty clear bad faith.

Exactly. She is used against us frequently to try to smear us, when like I have stated before, I never supported her and think she was an unreasonable *******. But she isn't an ******* because she is trans, she's a transwoman who happens to also be an *******. (Also, it's amazing ******* is censored here.)

Edited for rule 10. Do not attempt to disguise words, let the forum auto-censor take care of forbidden words.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin

 

[Meadmaker]

I think it’s synonymous with sex for 99% of people. I mean my gender is my sex and I think it’s that way for everyone who isn’t disordered or w/e the word for feeling like your gender isn’t aligning with your sex is (I’m tired and I forget). But yeah I’m with you — we live in a society that gives people a wide birth to behave however they want as long as it harms no one plus the privileges thing.

I think the word you are looking for is "dysphoric", the noun form being "dysphoria".

 

[ponderingturtle]

Holy cow. Male people have three extra large pizzas. Female people, after years of clawing and fighting and yelling at the top of our lungs (and usually being ignored) have just managed to scrape together a small pizza.

But we're expected to share that pizza, divvy it up into even smaller bits, so that some male people can have some of it.

Why on earth do you think we're not giving anything up?

You want to open up scholarships and grants for females in STEM, so that they include some males who claim to be women. That reduces the amount of scholarships available for females, and diverts them to males - who already have access to lots of support for STEM fields.

You want people with penises to have access to areas that are intended to be safe spaces for females, spaces where penises are considered socially unacceptable... and you think women aren't giving up anything?

You haven't had to deal with any of the sexism and gender bias in the world. You haven't been subjected to the objectification, the dismissal of our views, the lack of *&^%$$## bodily autonomy that women are faced with... but you want to reap the rewards of the victories we've just barely managed to eek out... and you think women aren't giving up anything?

I'll happily call you whatever pronoun you prefer, and you can use my toilet if you want. But this pretense, this arrogant assumption that your feeling of personal well-being is more important than the rights and the safety and the strides toward equality that women are *still* trying to make happen is insulting.

It shows a remarkable lack of understanding about being a woman.

Ah so it is about competitive victim-hood.

 

[Meadmaker]

Exactly. She is used against us frequently to try to smear us, when like I have stated before, I never supported her and think she was an unreasonable *******. But she isn't an ******* because she is trans, she's a transwoman who happens to also be an *******. (Also, it's amazing ******* is censored here.)

Not only is that word censored here, but it is a violation of the MA to substitute asterisks like you did.

Rookie mistake. They won't send you to the stockade for it. Just type the word, and if it's a censored word, it will be replaced with all asterisks.

 

[Boudicca90]

In what way? What does the term "woman" mean to you? Is that usage similar to how the term has been used for millennia?

I have just stated my views on gender previously in the thread, that it is biopsychosocial in nature.

And "It has been like this for millennia, therefore we shouldn't change it to reflect a more modern view" is a poor argument for anything and would stifle any kind of progress. Our old view of gender reflected the lack of actual research on gender, where everybody took it on faith that things are how they say they are. Progress comes from rejecting that faith.

 

[Boudicca90]

Not only is that word censored here, but it is a violation of the MA to substitute asterisks like you did.

Rookie mistake. They won't send you to the stockade for it. Just type the word, and if it's a censored word, it will be replaced with all asterisks.

Sorry about that. This is the first board I've been on that censors a word like that.

 

[Manger Douse]

Ah so it is about competitive victim-hood.

Patriarchy? Never heard of it

 

[Boudicca90]

Ummmm....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

No statement being made about the quality of research, but certainly some topics are very taboo for research.

Because those kinds of topics often just end up reinforcing racist views due to the biases of the researchers. I see the results of a lot of research on the effect of race on intelligence just in that Wiki article, it's just the way this kind of research has been historically used to subjugate people means there is much more scrutiny.

 

[Boudicca90]

Ah so it is about competitive victim-hood.

More like transmisogyny. Or both, can't discount that.

 

[ponderingturtle]

More like transmisogyny. Or both, can't discount that.

Well sure, I am just trying to frame their use of basic TERF language into something that they would recognize to be against.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sounds more like you think gender shouldn't be studied because of the chance that your beliefs will be invalidated. It's not politicized at all.

You're kidding, right? There's been plenty of studies that are specifically looking for differences in male and female brains, with the objective of being able to show that transwomen's brains are more similar to women's brains. They make a point of stressing that last point... even though it's extremely small differences to begin with, and that the majority of noted differences are literally due to the size of the skull which is directly related to body size. Males are bigger than females. Once those differences are accounted for, the remaining differences in brains are minor, and are largely a result of either plasticity (very likely reflecting experiential differences) or are differences directly traceable to sex. The fact remains that the marginal differences noted in the brains of fairly small selections of transwomen are not materially different enough to be meaningful. What gets "overlooked" pretty regularly is that the hypothetically noted brain differences are not even significant enough for a blind hypothesis test - you can't show a researcher a brain and ask them whether it's a female or a male brain, they won't be able to tell the difference.

On the other hand... there's a significant risk of abuse for any of those studies in once again setting women to a second-class status. Here we have brain science (!) that shows that women's brains are just different... that must be why there are so few women in politics, they simply don't have the brains for it!

But that very real risk, the kind of argument that has held women back for centuries... well, that's just not an important consideration. Definitely not as important as making sure that some male people who identify as women don't feel put out.

I am happy to be an ally for transgender people. It would be awfully nice if those transgender people were willing to be an ally for females in return.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have just stated my views on gender previously in the thread, that it is biopsychosocial in nature.

And "It has been like this for millennia, therefore we shouldn't change it to reflect a more modern view" is a poor argument for anything and would stifle any kind of progress. Our old view of gender reflected the lack of actual research on gender, where everybody took it on faith that things are how they say they are. Progress comes from rejecting that faith.

Your progress comes at my cost.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Because those kinds of topics often just end up reinforcing racist views due to the biases of the researchers.

But research that 'demonstrates' that females have different brains than males couldn't possibly be used to reinforce misogyny and sexism?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Your progress comes at my cost.

The clarion call of reactionaries since the dawn of time.

 

[MisAndreG]

Being trans is not considered a disorder like being gay isn't considered a disorder.

Dysphoric is the word I was looking for.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Your progress comes at my cost.

Yep just like your feminism comes at my cost. Yet for some reason that does not bother you.

 

[MisAndreG]

I think the word you are looking for is "dysphoric", the noun form being "dysphoria".

Yes, thank you!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yep just like your feminism comes at my cost. Yet for some reason that does not bother you.

TERFs taking a brave stand by pulling up the ladder behind them.

 

[ponderingturtle]

TERFs taking a brave stand by pulling up the ladder behind them.

To be fair there is a limited amount of equality to go around.

 

[Boudicca90]

You're kidding, right? There's been plenty of studies that are specifically looking for differences in male and female brains, with the objective of being able to show that transwomen's brains are more similar to women's brains. They make a point of stressing that last point... even though it's extremely small differences to begin with, and that the majority of noted differences are literally due to the size of the skull which is directly related to body size. Males are bigger than females. Once those differences are accounted for, the remaining differences in brains are minor, and are largely a result of either plasticity (very likely reflecting experiential differences) or are differences directly traceable to sex. The fact remains that the marginal differences noted in the brains of fairly small selections of transwomen are not materially different enough to be meaningful. What gets "overlooked" pretty regularly is that the hypothetically noted brain differences are not even significant enough for a blind hypothesis test - you can't show a researcher a brain and ask them whether it's a female or a male brain, they won't be able to tell the difference.

On the other hand... there's a significant risk of abuse for any of those studies in once again setting women to a second-class status. Here we have brain science (!) that shows that women's brains are just different... that must be why there are so few women in politics, they simply don't have the brains for it!

But that very real risk, the kind of argument that has held women back for centuries... well, that's just not an important consideration. Definitely not as important as making sure that some male people who identify as women don't feel put out.

I am happy to be an ally for transgender people. It would be awfully nice if those transgender people were willing to be an ally for females in return.

Wow, you jump to some pretty extreme conclusions. I realize now that whatever hope I thought you might have to understand us was misplaced.