Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[The Great Zaganza]

Don't think his lawyer expects him nor intends for Kyle to beat the rap. He's being molded into a reactionary right martyr who will be used as a rethorical weapon. Eventually, Trump can just pardon any federal charges, right?

But the charges are not federal.

I fear Kyle is going to be used like a tissue and then thrown away by the right-wing media: just like Flynn would have been better off not trusting a FOX-pundit to be his lawyer, Rittenhouse will regret letting the MAGA-base help his defense.
After all, the only useful martyrs are those who suffer and die.

 

[Bogative]

Video of mostly peaceful Freedom Fighters chucking Molotov cocktails over a safety fence and firebombing Seattle PD's East Precinct building.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Nobody is claiming that. Please stop that.

We are talking about justified police shootings and that certainly has happened in shootings that were found to be justified. Obeying police orders is certainly not enough to prevent you from being shot in a totally justified fashion by the police. See these as examples like Philando Castile and

https://www.wftv.com/news/trending-now/you-told-me-to-video-shows-charlotte-police-officer-kill-man-following-orders-to-drop-gun/941371628/

These are all cases that have been run through the system and found to be appropriate use of force by the police.

 

[Suddenly]

There's a lot of room between our current horrible carceral system and one where 17 year old double murders get a a 5 year sentence.

Well, sure. The system is horrible to its core but that is another whole thing. I'm speaking within the general binary system that exists as it is.

17 years old is old enough to know that taking a gun and seeking out opportunities to murder is morally reprehensible behavior. I could see his youth and the influence of right wing propaganda glorifying violence being a somewhat mitigating factor in his defense, but I still think decades in jail would be appropriate.

It's hard for me to remain impartial given that his legal defense is trying to turn him into some sort of right wing martyr.

The legal defense doing so is a huge reason this shouldn't be in an adult court. In a juvenile court that defense stays in the courtroom as long as the lawyers like having a license. Being painted as a christlike figure, only if it were Bernie Getz who immaculately conceived and Donald Trump were God isn't doing this kid any favors.

Knowing better isn't the issue. It is the brain being developed enough to appreciate consequences. There have been reports that he got some material support from his family to do all of this. He's a pawn and we are shooting the messenger here.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This is why the racists/racists apologists are demanding that every single incident be looked at in a vacuum, so they can always play the "Well if only the black guy had done this, he wouldn't have gotten shot" argument.

The fact that there's a scenario where the black person did done "this" and is still dead is the point.

Breonna Taylor. Asleep in her own bed. "Well if she had only done X" your way out of that somebody, please I want to see you try.

 

[Dr.Sid]

THAT'S WHAT ******* HAPPENS THOUGH!

Reality doesn't have to wait for someone in a discussion to bring it up before it's a factor.

That's what happens, sure. It's was not simply brought in discussion though, it was a response to me saying 'some shooting are legitimate'.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Well, sure. The system is horrible to its core but that is another whole thing. I'm speaking within the general binary system that exists as it is.

The legal defense doing so is a huge reason this shouldn't be in an adult court. In a juvenile court that defense stays in the courtroom as long as the lawyers like having a license. Being painted as a christlike figure, only if it were Bernie Getz who immaculately conceived and Donald Trump were God isn't doing this kid any favors.

Knowing better isn't the issue. It is the brain being developed enough to appreciate consequences. There have been reports that he got some material support from his family to do all of this. He's a pawn and we are shooting the messenger here.

I contend that, while a 17 year old has less agency than your average adult, Kyle has enough moral reasoning to understand the wrongness of his actions and be held accountable. This isn't your average youthful indiscretion. I would contend that the vast majority of 17 year olds would not act this way and would understand the riskiness and criminality of such an action.

I also agree that whoever set him down this road, both by providing him access to this rifle and poisoning his brain with propaganda, has really done him a great disservice. I would fully support any criminal charges for whoever supplied a rifle to a 17 year old to go patrol a protest.

Even then, 17 is old enough to be accountable. Many of the videos showing him patrolling alone and clearly he's shown a lot of individual initiative to commit these crimes.

To be honest, I'm fine with him being tried as an adult and spending his entire life in prison.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's what happens, sure. It's was not simply brought in discussion though, it was a response to me saying 'some shooting are legitimate'.

You brought up legitimate shootings and tied it to what happens in court, so those are clearly legitimate shootings per your definition of legitimate.

 

[pgwenthold]

I am perfectly fine charging him as a juvenile as long as they charge the adults who got him to this point.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It is the brain being developed enough to appreciate consequences. There have been reports that he got some material support from his family to do all of this. He's a pawn and we are shooting the messenger here.

Tamir Rice was ******* 12. The police shot him dead for carrying a toy gun. They didn't worry about his "mental development" at that point.

Kyle Wittenhouse was 17, shoots 2 people, walks up to police carrying an assault rifle, and is sent on his way. Now his "mental development" is a big deal we're supposed to care about.

At this point I think black people are more angry at the fact that people keep pretending they don't know what they are angry about than anything.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I am perfectly fine charging him as a juvenile as long as they charge the adults who got him to this point.

Giving him that kind of special treatment is something I find grating. If he wasn't held up as a hero this would be a simple easy try him as an adult case and no one would care.

How our justice system should work vs how it does work is a debate for a different thread in my opinion.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That's what happens, sure. It's was not simply brought in discussion though, it was a response to me saying 'some shooting are legitimate'.

If the waiter spills burning soup on you, would you want to hear him tell about the soup he had last week that was too cold while your skins blisters and turns red?

 

[pgwenthold]

Giving him that kind of special treatment is something I find grating. If he wasn't held up as a hero this would be a simple easy try him as an adult case and no one would care.

How our justice system should work vs how it does work is a debate for a different thread in my opinion.

Fair point, and I should add in that I am generally opposed to juveniles being charged as adults in other cases.

I oppose juveniles being charged as adults until they have the option to do so in an underage drinking charge.

 

[Dr.Sid]

We are talking about justified police shootings and that certainly has happened in shootings that were found to be justified. Obeying police orders is certainly not enough to prevent you from being shot in a totally justified fashion by the police. See these as examples like Philando Castile and

https://www.wftv.com/news/trending-now/you-told-me-to-video-shows-charlotte-police-officer-kill-man-following-orders-to-drop-gun/941371628/

These are all cases that have been run through the system and found to be appropriate use of force by the police.

Ok, my bad, haven't heard about this one. Pretty bad, still I'm not surprised about the 'not guilty' verdict, especially if there was body cam supporting the cop's version. In most jurisdiction the cop only needs to believe he's under threat. He doesn't have to actually see the gun. The idea behind this is seeing the gun is too late.
I don't like this at all. Penalty for being drunk (deaf, retarded) while being arrested must not be death. Would be nice of police was required to make sure there is gun (weapon). Question is, can police work with such handicap in country as violent as US ?
Is dead cop better than random dead civilian ? On one hand cops get training and equipment to deal with the situation, on the other hand they have to deal with similar situations on daily basis.

 

[rdwight]

That's what happens, sure. It's was not simply brought in discussion though, it was a response to me saying 'some shooting are legitimate'.

They don't want to have that conversation. So they won't. To be fair though, there are enough illegitimate shootings happening to keep the movement fueled for change regardless.

Add in videos of white people not getting a bullet in far more menacing situations than one's we witness of black people that get publicity and it's hard to really use it as anything more than to keep people from going full "the police are just murder squad with no purpose". You probably wouldn't change those people with nuance anyway.

 

[ponderingturtle]

They don't want to have that conversation. So they won't. To be fair though, there are enough illegitimate shootings happening to keep the movement fueled for change regardless.

Look by the definition provided the killing of Daniel Shaver was legitimate so discussing it in a discussion of legitimate shootings is totally applicable.

We are not talking about illegitimate shootings, we are talking about ones that were found to be legitimate.

Add in videos of white people not getting a bullet in far more menacing situations than one's we witness of black people that get publicity and it's hard to really use it as anything more than to keep people from going full "the police are just murder squad with no purpose". You probably wouldn't change those people with nuance anyway.

The definition of legitimate was provided as received legal sanction, so to discuss these illegitimate shootings you have very few cases to discuss and get upset about.

These come to mind

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond

And a few others, but really why are you refusing to discuss the proven legitimates shootings like that of Philando Castile? The officer did nothing wrong that was proven in court and if he did something wrong they could have fired him instead of having to pay him to leave.

 

[Suddenly]

Giving him that kind of special treatment is something I find grating. If he wasn't held up as a hero this would be a simple easy try him as an adult case and no one would care.

How our justice system should work vs how it does work is a debate for a different thread in my opinion.

The problem is that it can at all be framed as "special" treatment. Which is only because the system fails people who are marginalized.

As far as injustices go, this kid being tried as an adult is close to the bottom of the pile of things I'd fix if I could, but framing this as special treatment that he should not get normalizes the use of adult jurisdiction against kids in other contexts.

 

[crescent]

...

He's got some weird legal representation going on. Lin Wood, best known for defamation cases involving right wingers like the Covington Catholic kid, is involved in a criminal defense case for some reason. I see bizarre 2A arguments about him being a "militaman" or whatever. I am assuming this is more on the PR side and not his actual criminal defense strategy.

I assume he has a real criminal defense lawyer, because I would think a double homicide + other felonies is probably not the ideal case for an amateur.

Don't think his lawyer expects him nor intends for Kyle to beat the rap. He's being molded into a reactionary right martyr who will be used as a rethorical weapon. Eventually, Trump can just pardon any federal charges, right?

Jury trial - they only need to sway one juror with emotion. Get one juror with a psuedo-religious interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. One juror who sees Rittenhouse as a kid in over his head. One juror who thinks he's cute. One juror is all it takes.

For a high-profile bombastic lawyer, such a trial need not be about law. Theater works just as well, sell a story to the jury, you only have to get one to buy it (that's also part of the reason it is so difficult to convict police of crimes even when it does get prosecuted, some people will just never vote to convict a cop of much of anything, they just can't ever bring themselves to do it).

I am perfectly fine charging him as a juvenile as long as they charge the adults who got him to this point.

Someone gave him a gun, put him in a confrontational situation, then let him get separated from the rest of the militia. This militia group was anything but "well regulated", they seem to have dangerously incompetent in the absolute literal meaning of "dangerously incompetent".

 

[johnny karate]

Ok, my bad, haven't heard about this one. Pretty bad, still I'm not surprised about the 'not guilty' verdict, especially if there was body cam supporting the cop's version. In most jurisdiction the cop only needs to believe he's under threat. He doesn't have to actually see the gun. The idea behind this is seeing the gun is too late.
I don't like this at all. Penalty for being drunk (deaf, retarded) while being arrested must not be death. Would be nice of police was required to make sure there is gun (weapon). Question is, can police work with such handicap in country as violent as US ?
Is dead cop better than random dead civilian ? On one hand cops get training and equipment to deal with the situation, on the other hand they have to deal with similar situations on daily basis.

Ask yourself how many unjustifiable police shootings are acceptable.

Now imagine that you or a loved one are on the list of candidates for an unjustifiable police shooting.

Does that move the needle for you?

 

[shuttlt]

Ask yourself how many unjustifiable police shootings are acceptable.

Now imagine that you or a loved one are on the list of candidates for an unjustifiable police shooting.

Does that move the needle for you?

Allowing the police guns means there are going to be some unjustifiable shootings. Surely the exact number that would be acceptable isn't knowable and would change over time?