Cont: The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

[Aridas]

So I guess based on past behavior we can expect that when the US develops a vaccine, the Trump administration will either buy it all up (like the cheap COVID tests) or steal it from the Democrat-led states (like the PPE shipments).

FTFY.

Given other revelations, may as well call that what it almost certainly is. A cynical attempt to use the federal government to make things worse in the blue states and then yell about how badly the Democrats are handling it for the sake of attempted political gain.

Trump reminds me of the virus in the series "The Rain"; whatever he touches, he destroys.

When you say that, I'm immediately reminded of Thread, which rains down from Pern's skies and voraciously eats anything organic that it touches.

Elsewhere, though... that 6% BS hasn't been stamped out, unsurprisingly, and has led to such lovely things as... Joni Ernst Suggests Iowa Doctors Falsifying COVID Cases For Money.

*sigh*

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Now the CDC is getting involved in things that aren't their area of authority and they know nothing about, in the name of COVID-19.

I work for a company that makes cleaning products and disinfectants. As you can imagine, we've been a little busy lately. An employee from a city agency in New York City contacted me because someone from the CDC told him that the Safety Data Sheet for one of our disinfectants didn't have the correct hazards and needed to be updated. The CDC has issued guidance on what hazards a disinfectant should have, based on the active ingredients. It says it's being done by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), but they would know better.

Two problems:
-The CDC has no authority to regulate Safety Data Sheets. They're controlled by OSHA under specific federal regulations.
-The hazard data on the linked page is for 100% pure chemicals, not finished products containing those chemicals. A product might contain 98% water and 2% didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride, and they're apparently telling people it should display the hazards of 100% ddac.

I find this very curious. So were they trying to have you overstate the risk of specific disinfectants?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

It really reminds me of when a customer's food processing plant was being audited by the USDA, and the auditor threw a fit because the paperwork for one of our food contact surface sanitizers referred to it as a pesticide. "You can't apply pesticides to food contact surfaces!!" Learn the regulatory terminology relevant to your job. Bacteria and viruses are classified as "pests", so anything that destroys them is classified as a "pesticide".

I can so relate to that. When OSHA delved into infectious disease hazards (a good thing) inspectors were all industrial hygienists. It's an understatement how deficient they were in infectious disease hazards.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It actually can, but it doesn’t mean what Trumpanista’s want it to mean. In a well mixed population where all contacts are equally likely this is (1-1/R0)*100%. This means that if R0 is 1.1 herd immunity is achieved when 10% of the population is infected.

Wrt Covid-19, if you can reduce R0 from 2.5 to 1.1 then 10% is sufficient for herd immunity. How do reduce the R0 for a virus? Social distancing, masks, hand washing, and though the process of testing > contact tracing > contact isolation. All the things these people are trying to avoid…

Nice but it doesn't apply to current events.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I hope WHO responds by developing a safe, effective vaccine and making sure it can't be shipped to the U.S.

Much as this neener neener feels satisfying, all those health care workers and at risk persons don't deserve it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So I guess based on past behavior we can expect that when the US develops a vaccine, the Trump administration will either buy it all up (like the cheap COVID tests) or steal it from the states (like the PPE shipments).

Speaking of stealing vaccine, I was supposed to have 300 doses of flu vaccine delivered by tomorrow. I kept getting the runaround from the vaccine manufacturer, GSK, and now they are claiming we'll all get our orders filled by October! I have flu shot clinics scheduled throughout September.

And curiously there is a news report just out about the CDC buying millions of doses of flu vaccine.

I know Trump (via FEMA) diverted orders of PPE destined for at least 2 nursing homes I do work for.

If that is indeed what happened it's infuriating.

 

[Aridas]

Much as this neener neener feels satisfying, all those health care workers and at risk persons don't deserve it.

Nor the rest of us, really. It's worth remembering that despite it all, Trump lost the popular vote by a significant margin, and, by a very large margin, the people who are least likely to get vaccinated anyways are the Trump supporters.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The US says it will not join an international search for a vaccine as It does not want to be "constrained" by the "corrupt World Health Organization and China"

 

[The Don]

The US says it will not join an international search for a vaccine as It does not want to be "constrained" by the "corrupt World Health Organization and China"

America First...

...America Only

Makes sense considering the Trump Administration's world view. If one of the other lot develop a successful vaccine then the US is confident about being able to buy the vaccine. If the US develops a vaccine itself then it'll have first dibs.

 

[Aridas]

America First...

...America Only

Makes sense considering the Trump Administration's world view. If one of the other lot develop a successful vaccine then the US is confident about being able to buy the vaccine. If the US develops a vaccine itself then it'll have first dibs.

Alternately, it's possible that the decision has something to do with the Administration's opposition to oversight?

 

[Mader Levap]

I think there is unironical, non-zero chance that "american-developed" vaccine (that will just happen to pop up just before elections) will be actually bootlegged Russian vaccine (or rather discarded remains that did not pass QA - or rather what in Russia pass for quality assurance).

No joking. Trump USA steadily rots in direction of third wold country. In some aspects is already there.

 

[Armitage72]

I think there is unironical, non-zero chance that "american-developed" vaccine (that will just happen to pop up just before elections) will be actually bootlegged Russian vaccine (or rather discarded remains that did not pass QA - or rather what in Russia pass for quality assurance).

No joking. Trump USA steadily rots in direction of third wold country. In some aspects is already there.

There was a quote I recently saw somewhere in which I think Trump said he didn't get a flu vaccine because it was only 50-55% effective. Just pass off saline solution as a vaccine. If people get the vaccine and then get sick, they were just part of the unlucky percentage for whom it wasn't effective. It's a shame, but it can't be helped. That's just how vaccines work, after all.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

As if I didn't hate Trump enough, I sincerely believe he diverted my and many other provider's flu vaccine orders. I was supposed to get 300 doses of flu vaccine today. Starting tomorrow I had a dozen flu clinics scheduled for September.

Supposedly I will get it by Oct 2nd. I contacted my rep and she contacted them. They said they would expedite the order but still wouldn't give a firm date. That could mean they really will get me the vaccine sooner or they are just brushing me off.

I checked on the CDC website and there is no shortage of vaccine. So I'm not worried I won't get it, but this is maddening. The only thing I did find was that the CDC had bought up more than a million doses of vaccine.

It's an odd news report since the CDC has for the last decade guaranteed a minimum purchase to stabilize the vaccine market. And they do purchase vaccine for distribution to local health departments, some of which still offer vaccine clinics.

But they have never announced they have "bought" vaccine doses at the beginning of flu vaccine season, let alone more than a million and there was no logical reason for it.

The providers like myself ordered our supplies last year! Clearly this CDC order was a current diversion of doses. And why? There's no shortage of vaccine and what is the CDC going to do with the doses? In my I-hate-Trump mind this was no more than a publicity stunt to make it look like Trump was taking action.

I'm hoping I can get some news agency or reporter to investigate.

 

[Bob001]

As if I didn't hate Trump enough, I sincerely believe he diverted my and many other provider's flu vaccine orders. I was supposed to get 300 doses of flu vaccine today. Starting tomorrow I had a dozen flu clinics scheduled for September.
.....

Question: Is it available from other manufacturers and suppliers? Is it in short supply everywhere, or just from your regular source? Also, if the government is grabbing all the vaccine, what are they doing with it? Shipping it to red states? It ultimately has to be delivered to providers and patients one way or another.

 

[Bob001]

There was a quote I recently saw somewhere in which I think Trump said he didn't get a flu vaccine because it was only 50-55% effective. Just pass off saline solution as a vaccine. If people get the vaccine and then get sick, they were just part of the unlucky percentage for whom it wasn't effective. It's a shame, but it can't be helped. That's just how vaccines work, after all.

That's one of the things that contributes to the misconception that the vaccine causes flu. People get the shot and get flu anyway, and they think the vaccine gave it to them. No, they were just on the wrong side of the percentage.

 

[Meadmaker]

It actually can, but it doesn’t mean what Trumpanista’s want it to mean. In a well mixed population where all contacts are equally likely this is (1-1/R0)*100%. This means that if R0 is 1.1 herd immunity is achieved when 10% of the population is infected.

Wrt Covid-19, if you can reduce R0 from 2.5 to 1.1 then 10% is sufficient for herd immunity. How do reduce the R0 for a virus? Social distancing, masks, hand washing, and though the process of testing > contact tracing > contact isolation. All the things these people are trying to avoid…

Ok. I see what your saying. What I was referring to was that you couldn't get rid of the virus via herd immunity alone if just 10% of the population is infected. The people advocating it are, as you noted, acting as if we ought to just let everyone be free and go back to normal. A few people get sick and herd immunity protects the rest.

That's idiocy.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Question: Is it available from other manufacturers and suppliers? Is it in short supply everywhere, or just from your regular source? Also, if the government is grabbing all the vaccine, what are they doing with it? Shipping it to red states? It ultimately has to be delivered to providers and patients one way or another.

The way it works is we all order our flu vaccine between Nov and Feb. After that it's sold out and you have to order on a wait list. So no, at the moment I can't order more flu vaccine. I have 80 doses from Sanofi that I'll get around the 9th. But my 300 GSK doses shouldn't have been delayed like this after we were all expecting it now.

There are some less than ethical distributors that buy some vaccine up and try to sell it to clinics at double the price. I haven't looked if they have any. I probably should check with the couple other manufacturers but I've been through this before and it is unlikely they have any not already spoken for.

Bigger vaccine profiteers like Safeway and Costco all got their supplies already as is standard. They push it on the public sooner than they should, the vaccine manufacturers love it because those companies buy so much. Hospitals often get theirs, like I expect Kaiser will have vaccine now or soon.

But the rest of us are supposed to have priority based on when we ordered it. I ordered the vaccine last Nov.

If the CDC butted in line and diverted over a million doses then it's pretty clear they did not order it 10+ months ago.

Like I said, the CDC does have their usual order because they dispense it to local health departments (goes to states and then to counties). But there is no reason that should have been announced in a Trump news release and curiously at the same time GSK told all their customers like me that it won't be out for a month. Last month it was expected by the end of Aug. Heck for the last few years they have been shipping it out at the beginning of Aug.

The CDC has a web site where they announce vaccine production problems and subsequent shortages. There are no shortages or production problems reported on the site currently.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's one of the things that contributes to the misconception that the vaccine causes flu. People get the shot and get flu anyway, and they think the vaccine gave it to them. No, they were just on the wrong side of the percentage.

That's not the main reason people mistakenly believe flu vaccine makes them ill. We give flu vaccine in Oct just after kids have returned to school and start spreading respiratory pathogens around the community. You get a flu shot and soon after you catch one of these infections so you blame the vaccine because it was about the same time as the shot.

 

[Tolls]

I'll have to remember that one to explain to the mother in law, who is always complaining the flu jab makes her ill.
I've said before that it's likely coincidence.

 

[newyorkguy]

I'll have to remember that one to explain to the mother in law, who is always complaining the flu jab makes her ill.
I've said before that it's likely coincidence.

I understand this is off-topic, but it's not a coincidence. It's a fairly common reaction.

From WebMD

The flu shot is made from dead viruses and cannot "give" you the flu. However, the vaccine can trigger an immune response from your body, so you may have a few mild symptoms, like achy muscles or a low-grade fever. Link

This is from Men's Health dot com:

The flu shot will not actually give you the flu, according to the Centers for Disease Control & Prevention. However, people who get the flu shot may experience muscle soreness, fever or nausea. Link

Been there, done that. The last time I had a flu vaccine was in 2009, the year after I'd had Type E influenza. For a couple days after I got vaccinated I felt like crap. My doctor told me it was a fairly common reaction, not to worry.