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Tookie Williams: clemency denied

Jocko said:
Well, would you say the deaths of four innocent people by murder is:

A. More unfortunate
B. About as unfortunate
C. Less unfortunate

...than the execution of a convicted murderer who has had access to his full due process rights?

As to whether any crime is heinous enough to merit a penalty as severe as death, well, that's something I think people of good conscience can disagree on... but the point you responded to didn't really involve that.
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While emotionaly, I agree with what you were suggesting, that the deaths of four innocent peoples seems to be much more unfortunate, I don't emotional responses should guide justice.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Elaborate?
 
Is executing Tookie worth executing 1 innocent man? If not whats the limit? Is executing 100 Tookies worth 1 innocent life? What about 1,000?

Does anybody really want to claim that their justice system is perfect and no innocent people ever get convicted?
 
ImaginalDisc said:
While emotionaly, I agree with what you were suggesting, that the deaths of four innocent peoples seems to be much more unfortunate, I don't emotional responses should guide justice.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Elaborate?
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You said I was coldly calculating the value of a life. I elaborated (i.e., not absolute value but a relative value) and obviously you now understand what I meant.

I don't see that emotion is what caused the death penalty to be applied, here or anywhere. What I do see, however, is rank appeal to emotion on behalf of the "free Tookie" celebrity cadre, and that is nauseating.
 
Anti_Hypeman said:
Is executing Tookie worth executing 1 innocent man? If not whats the limit? Is executing 100 Tookies worth 1 innocent life? What about 1,000?
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Oh, here we go again.

One murderer is not worth as much as one non-murderer. That's my measurement; don't ask me to "prove" it because there's no such thing.

Does anybody really want to claim that their justice system is perfect and no innocent people ever get convicted?
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No, no one is claiming this, no one has ever claimed this, and this straw has been dismissed as such before.
 
Jocko said:
You said I was coldly calculating the value of a life. I elaborated (i.e., not absolute value but a relative value) and obviously you now understand what I meant.
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No, I understand now. I wasn't sure that was what you were suggesting. I wouldn't have asked you to elaborate if I were certain what you meant.
 
Jocko said:
Well, would you say the deaths of four innocent people by murder is:

A. More unfortunate
B. About as unfortunate
C. Less unfortunate

...than the execution of a convicted murderer who has had access to his full due process rights?
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It's not exactly an either/or situation, is it?
 
American said:
Then don't ever drive. It's not worth one innocent life.

Oh wait, actually it's worth 1.17 million yearly deaths, worldwide.
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Executing Tookie provides no benefits that I am aware of. We need to drive we dont need the death penalty. It cost a fortune just to kill this guy and will accomplish nothing. Do you think some crack addict is going to think "Wait they killed Tookie I cant rob that lady".
 
Jocko said:
Oh, here we go again.

One murderer is not worth as much as one non-murderer. That's my measurement; don't ask me to "prove" it because there's no such thing.

No, no one is claiming this, no one has ever claimed this, and this straw has been dismissed as such before.
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If you believe in the death penalty but dont believe that our justice system is perfect then you must find it acceptable that innocent people have and will be murdered by the government.

What does it accomplish besides giving you a warm fuzzy? You dont think that money could have been spent any better?
 
Jocko said:
No, which is why there are three possible answers to the question.
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You're missing the point. It's not a case of Williams' life or his victims. So what's the point of determining whether his death is "more" or "less" unfortunate than his victims'?
 
Cleon said:
You're missing the point. It's not a case of Williams' life or his victims. So what's the point of determining whether his death is "more" or "less" unfortunate than his victims'?
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Actually, Cleon, I think you're missing the point, specifically, the one person who could have kept Tookie from the needle is Tookie himself.

As to the relative value of life, I was totally upfront in the way I measure things, as well as the inherently subjective nature of such measurements. You'd have better luck convincing me my favorite color isn't green than you would trying to convince me Tookie is in any way some kind of victim.
 
I'll side with Cleon and Ryokan, but I can't deny that I feel much more sorry for Tookie's victims.

My problem with the death penalty is that it's handed out so unevenly. Technological advances in forensics have proven the innocence of many a death row inmate, and that is a mistake the State cannot afford to make in a democratic society.

But, in the instances where guilt is proven beyond a doubt in crimes as heinous as those committed by Mr. Williams my sympathies lie with the victims.

It's sad how quickly those on death row become "born again." Too bad they never find God (or at least a more humble, peaceful existence) BEFORE they brutally affect another person's life. If Tookie Williams is truly concerned with turning the young away from gang's and their associated violence, he'll have some small recompense to know that tomorrow's lesson is called, Paying For Your Crimes." It's worth 100 points and should impress upon potential (and current) gang members, if you kill someone, you could end up like Tookie, at the end of his rope with no mercy in sight.

I would be COMPLETELY satisfied if Tookie takes his last few steps thinking about the last minute pleas of his victims. Ya shoulda written the books FIRST, Tookie!
 
Anti_Hypeman said:
If you believe in the death penalty but dont believe that our justice system is perfect then you must find it acceptable that innocent people have and will be murdered by the government.
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By that logic, whether you support the death penalty or not, if you don't believe the system is perfect then you must find it acceptable that innocent people will be forced to rot in a jail cell by the government.

At some point you have to accept that the system is imperfect, mistakes will be made and move on; the alternative is to never hold anyone respnosible for their crimes lest a mistake be made.
 
Anti_Hypeman said:
If you believe in the death penalty but dont believe that our justice system is perfect then you must find it acceptable that innocent people have and will be murdered by the government.

What does it accomplish besides giving you a warm fuzzy? You dont think that money could have been spent any better?
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Peddle your straw elsewhere, AH. Imperfection itself is not reason to scrap anything. And I object to your characterization of my satisfaction of justice being a "warm fuzzy"; it speaks volumes about your inability to discuss things honestly.
 
Jocko said:
Peddle your straw elsewhere, AH. Imperfection itself is not reason to scrap anything. And I object to your characterization of my satisfaction of justice being a "warm fuzzy"; it speaks volumes about your inability to discuss things honestly.
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As long as the wrongly convicted person is still alive in prison, there is some hope that they could be exonorated. Once we've killed them, we've removed that possibility. What's objectionable about the death penalty (to me, I won't speak for others) is the finality of it.

Nyarlathotep:
"At some point you have to accept that the system is imperfect, mistakes will be made and move on; the alternative is to never hold anyone respnosible for their crimes lest a mistake be made."

Life in prison is a reasonable alternative. Opposing the death penalty is not opposing the principle of justice. Ending the death penalty will not cause anarchy. Slippery slope.
 
Jocko said:
Actually, Cleon, I think you're missing the point, specifically, the one person who could have kept Tookie from the needle is Tookie himself.
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Oh, I'm not arguing that the guy is a saint. Merely my displeasure that someone is going to be put to death tonight.

You'd have better luck convincing me my favorite color isn't green than you would trying to convince me Tookie is in any way some kind of victim.
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What was the phrase? "Peddle your straw elsewhere."
 
ImaginalDisc said:
Nyarlathotep:
"At some point you have to accept that the system is imperfect, mistakes will be made and move on; the alternative is to never hold anyone respnosible for their crimes lest a mistake be made."

Life in prison is a reasonable alternative. Opposing the death penalty is not opposing the principle of justice. Ending the death penalty will not cause anarchy. Slippery slope.
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I never said opposing the death penalty was opposing the principle of justice or that ending the death penalty would result in anarchy. Do not put words in my mouth. My point was that "mistakes might be made" is not sufficient reason to oppose the death penalty since mistakes can also made when doling out any other punishment.
 
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